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Shooting a T/C Hawken-style rifle, with a 28" barrel and a 1 in 48 inch twist, using black powder or Pyrodex, what kind of accuracy could one expect at 50 yards? This is said understanding that different barrels, powders, bullets and so on can affect accuracy greatly. sputster | ||
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Well, you have not stated the bullet, charge, which powder, or which cap. So, let me put it this way. If you can shoot, the rifle will shoot M.O.D. (minute of deer) at 50 yards with just about any deer load you put into it. Mine will take a deer out to 50 yards with patched ball, maxi ball, maxi hunter, or powerbelt. Load it up, and find what you like. Hope this helps I learned everything I will ever need to know about "Islam" on Sept. 11th, 2001 | |||
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sputster, My T/C Hawken (1:48, 28" bbl., open sights) would put 3 - 5 shots into 1" @ 50yds. using either 70 or 80gr. Pyro. RS, CCI #11 caps and home cast .440" RB's (from a T/C mold), Lee REAL's, or homecast Maxi-Balls (from both Lyman & T/C molds). The secret, if that's the right term, was using .018" patches with the RB's and a proper lube* with the concicals. It also helped to dry patch the bore after seating (but before capping the piece) the projectile. With the conicals, I always damp patched the bore after each shot if I wanted the best accuracy. *I used Winchester Sutler's "Moose Milk" on the patches. | |||
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I was asking a roundabout figure, in general terms. With Pyrodex and #11 caps, and Speer .490" roundballs or Hornady .495" roundballs with T/C prelubed patches, it can barely hit a 2' by 2' paper at 50 yards. That's with 60, 70, or 80 gr of powder. Shooting T/C 350gr maxi-hunters with 80 or 90 gr of Pyrodex I can get two shots within a foot of each other if I really try. Is that acceptable? The stores around where I live generally don't have much other than Pyrodex. This is with a beat up old T/C Renegade that I bought secondhand. A couple of years ago it seemed to like T/C 460gr Maxi-balls but nothing else. When I clean it with hot soapy water, or T/C #13 Bore cleaner, I make sure it is dry and then patch it with Bore Butter. When I take it out of the gun locker a week later and dry patch it, it is rusty again. I am thinking that maybe it's the barrel, or something happened to it previous to me owning it. My thought is to get a Green Mountain barrel in a 1:28" twist and shoot conicals only. And be happy. sputster | |||
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A couple of observations: Your accuracy problems may be caused by end play at the hook breech. I had a TC Flinter that developed a .015 gap beteen the tang and barrel after several hundred rounds with 370 grain Maxiballs over 90 grains of FFFg. A temporary fix was a piece of steel shimstock, but eventually I returned the piece to TC and they replaced the tang, hooked breech and barrel free of charge. If you can't find the problem, send the rifle to TC with a courteous letter explaining your problem. All TC Hawkens have a lifetime warranty. IMO Your rust problem is caused by the bore butter. | |||
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sputster, stonebroke is dead on about T/C Bore Butter's inability to protect against rust. (Don't ask how I know this.) Undiluted Ballistol on your patch after thorooughly cleaning the bore, nipple area, and hammer nose works extremely well. | |||
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Thanks for the help! I'll look into Ballistol. Do Midway, Midsouth, or Natchez carry it? sputster | |||
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sputster, Both Midsouth & Midway carry it, but I don't know about Natchez. | |||
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I'll have to jump in here and say it AIN'T the Bore Butter. Bore Butter works well in all of my front stuffer barrels and I just patched one last month that was put up two or three years ago with bore butter in the barrel (Kept in a room with non climate controlled atmosphere in Tennessee). I'm guessing the barrel is pitted and the rust is getting started from material left in the pits after cleaning. My cleaning procedure Plug nipple with a toothpick FILL the barrel with cleaning solution (liquid dish soap and water) Start putting away equipment Pull toothpick and drain out cleaning solution Fill and repeat as you finish putting things away. Drain barrel again and hook a 6" section of plastic tubing over the nipple (no use getting water on the wood) Slosh several wet patches through the barrel (until solution coming thrugh tubing is perfectly clear and patches do NOT have any black) Dry the barrl with several dry patches (these should be perfectly clean when removed from the barrel Run Bore Butter patch through the barrel several times still should be no black on the patch SNIDE commentary to follow All of this done with my traditional gun in less time than it takes to get my bolt gun muzzleloader apart to start cleaning. Put the gun up Run a dry patch down the barrel 2-3 days later If there is black or rust then it is likely that the barrel was not clean when it was put away Some test were performed by a friend that has been shooting and hunting with muzzleloaders since the 60s One of the famously marketed powders that proclaimed they were not hard on barrels like black powder and would not promote rusting . . . rusted steel much faster and worse than Holy Black. Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits | |||
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You can buy a bore light for a muzzle loader. It's an LED light, small, brass, operates on what I call "hearing aid batteries." Anyways, they seem to fit in a 45 cal. bore. You twist the knob on it and slip it down the bore. It sits at the bottom and lights up the rifling. You don't get to see the end chamber, but it will give you a look at the bore. I have a 54 cal. Plains Rifle that I built from a kit. I never figured out accuracy on it, but the real shooters gave me some tips: Ball size and patch thickness need to be matched. This is crucial stuff. It's part of "working up a load." The ball obdurates when fired. It squeezes flat front to back and into the rifling. This is why ball diameter and patch thickness need to be "worked up." The sprue burr on the ball needs to face forward in the bore. This seems obvious, but gets overlooked. Patches -- I went to a fabric shop with a reloading caliper and found some cotton denim (twill) that was the right thickness. I tear it into strips and then patch the ball using a patch knife. This is cheaper than buying cut/greased patches. Also, you get to find the right weight for your patch. A patch knife is the way to go. It's more authentic. I found a nice "Old Hickory" paring knife, finished the grip with linseed oil, slow rust browned the blade, made a neck lanyard sheath for it. Patch grease -- vegetable shortning. If you want it to smell like Bore Butter you can add some liniment to it. I like the "butter flavored" shortening -- ALL VEGETABLE! No animal fats! I stay away from animal fats for the same reason BP shooters stay away from petroleum lubes -- although I have no proof for this. Veggie shortening is not that much more expensive than animal lard shortening. Read the label. Pour the charge down the barrel, patch and use a ball starter. Move the ball down the bore smoothly, don't hammer it or otherwise distort the ball. Seat the ball on the charge with uniform pressure. Serious shooters mark their ramrod for seating depth. Uniform depth and seating pressure are crucial to accuracy. Once you figure out a load combination, use the same caps. Uniform ignition is important. Make sure your ignition path is clean. There's a side screw on the nipple lug. Remove it when you're cleaning the barrel and scrub this area to remove the crud. When I clean a barrel, I remove it from the gun, remove the nipple and the nipple lug screw. Then I submerge the breech in a bucket or laundry basin of hot, soapy water and "siphon" water in through the nipple hole, up the bore. Run this action like a pump. Never hurts to change the water. HOT, HOT water heats up the barrel and also evaporates out of the bore. Scrub the bore a lot, bronze brush AND swabs, one then the other. A lot, a lot. Patch dry and clean, apply bore grease. I've been known to re-swab the bore in a few days with a clean patch and re-grease. If the patch is rusty, it's a good idea to reswab with hot water/soap. Bore cleaning for black powder is scrub intensive. A bore light shows you what's going on in the bore. I doubt they cost much more than $5 these days. | |||
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Hi, I am new to the forum and have enjoyed looking around. I have found that the following works well in the T/C Hawken or Renegade. Black powder 2F or 3F Oxyoke original wool felt over powder wad, lubed with wonder lube 1000 (Yellow stuff) .018 Pillow ticking lubed with Hoppes BP Solvent and Patch lube .58 120 grs 2F .62 120 grs 2F People I respect have found the .54 @ 90 grs 3F works great also. I look for used T/C Hawkens in Original .54 Caliber so the stock is set up for 1" flat barrels. Then buy a .58 caliber Green Mountain drop in bbl Round Ball bbl (1 x 72 twist) This shoots the 270gr RB like a laser. It likes heavy loads. Here is a 50 yd group @ 120grs 2F KIK bP I have aslo started experiminting with a .62 caliber Longhammock bbl 37" with 1x72 twist. It shoots a 340 gr RB with the same basic loading great also. I have not found the max loading but recoil is starting to pick up. Green Mountain makes a .62 cal smooth rifle drop in for the 1" Hawken l Renegade rifles. They will keep a RB in a tight group out to 75yds or so. Some guys have them rifled by a BP barrel maker. I went with these larger calibers because I wanted to shoot Round Balls and have some weight and larger bores to work with. Hope the info works for you. | |||
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Since someone else started to talk about a Green Mountain barrel on a TC. Here is a group from one of my 50's out of a TC renegade GM hybred. I have three of these two 50's and a 45. All of them are capable of sub 1" groups at 100 yards. Ron | |||
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