Hi guys,

I tried hunting this year with a borowed ML, it was the T/C Omega in blued version. Had a blast...pardon the pun.

I have been debating on which to buy, his was very accurate even with open sites. I would prefer stainless since I believe it would avoid all rust possibilities. My choices are either the CVA Kodiak in nickel finish/synthetic, or the T/C Omega in stainless/synthetic.

I have no knowledge at all about muzzleloaders about rusting, cleaning, treatment, accessories etc...so any help is extremely appreciated.

Thanks,

I would go with the TC based on the gun and company .

Don't risk injury or death to yourself by buying a CVA. Go with the TC, a proven and dependable firearm with a barrel that has been proof tested.

most definately the T/C. i have a cva i dont' think i'd even give to someone it sucks so bad.

you people are nuts,cva has sold millions of ML'S .there is no risk to shooting a cva. this is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard.

i have both,and the cva out shoots the new triumph easily. and with the problems i've had getting rid of the crud ring in the triumph ,TC has been no help at all ,there customer service used to be great . after being bought by S&W ,IT TOTALLY SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by srw:
you people are nuts,cva has sold millions of ML'S .there is no risk to shooting a cva. this is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard.

i have both,and the cva out shoots the new triumph easily. and with the problems i've had getting rid of the crud ring in the triumph ,TC has been no help at all ,there customer service used to be great . after being bought by S&W ,IT TOTALLY SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!

As far as the CVA, the proof is out there, you just need to look to find it. On other forums you can find pictures of CVAs with ruptured barrels. They make their guns in Spain. The lower priced ones have barrels that are not proofed at all or are only proofed to 8000 PSI. A warm pellet load will generate over 35,000 PSI.This is undebatable fact and not subject to argument. The newer CVA centerfire/muzzleloader comes with Bergara barrels on the centerfire but still not clear if the MZ barrel is also a Bergara. Look at the many CVA barrel recalls they have had. You can do what you want, in fact I wish you luck and hope that you don't maim yourself, but as a dealer, I will not sell a CVA. The liability (both financial and moral) is just too great for me.

By the way, the crud ring is not a function of the gun but of Triple 7 powder. You ought to check out some of the muzzleloading forums and randy Wakeman.com . The only crap on this thread is your assertion that CVAs are safe !!!!

BS,the crud ring is a sealed breech prblem not 777 infact my triumph gets a bad crud ring in just a few shots with win209 primers and any kind of powder i shoot . TC knows they have a problem and have admited many times to me and others. they are just unwilling to do anything about it. they are talking about offering ULTRA BORE COAT as an option with there guns next to help with the crud ring.

i still say and so do all the dealers in my area that he CVA problems have been caused by stupid people puting to much powder in the guns.

and if you believe what wakeman says,well i'll just leave it at that.some dealer.

The crud ring is a Triple 7only phenomenon. You won't get it with Pyrodex or any kind of black powder. That's why they came out with Triple 7 209 primers, which minimize the crud ring. I saw a big difference in my Knight just by changing to these primers. it is not unique to TCs. I don't know where you get your information, but it's not correct. Do some reading.

quote:

bowhuntrrl

no you are totally wrong,my gun does it with pyrodex and win 209's,even with shockeys gold and 777 primers.

I'M TELLING YOU ONE MORE TIME ,TC SAYS ITS A NIPPLE DESIGN PROBLEM,BUT THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIX IT.IT ONLY TOOK 3 MONTHS OF ARGUEMENTS TO GET THEM TO SAY SO.

I KNOW 20 GUYS THAT ARE 777PRIMERS AND POWDER IN OTHER ML AND THEY HAVE KNOW CRUD RINGS.

the best my gun gets is with win 209's and shockeys gold,but i only get 4-5 shots before it gets bad.

Had a CVA......piece of crap..ruptured the barrel on the 4th shot.Thankfully it did'nt hurt myself or any of the bystanders.I own 2 Thompsons and have NEVER had a single problem.
Wouldnt own another CVA if you gave it to me!!



"Big bullets","for those who like to eat right up to the hole"

quote:

Originally posted by srw:

quote:

bowhuntrrl

no you are totally wrong,my gun does it with pyrodex and win 209's,even with shockeys gold and 777 primers.

I'M TELLING YOU ONE MORE TIME ,TC SAYS ITS A NIPPLE DESIGN PROBLEM,BUT THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIX IT.IT ONLY TOOK 3 MONTHS OF ARGUEMENTS TO GET THEM TO SAY SO.

I KNOW 20 GUYS THAT ARE 777PRIMERS AND POWDER IN OTHER ML AND THEY HAVE KNOW CRUD RINGS.

the best my gun gets is with win 209's and shockeys gold,but i only get 4-5 shots before it gets bad.

If that were so, then my Knight rifle wouldn't get a crud ring with Triple Seven, would it ?? Perhaps you don't know what a crud ring is.

By the way, read this and learn about CVA rifles
Dangerous Muzzleloaders

Bye ...........

quite an interesting read about cva inlines.Also interesting to see a link for cva for sale at the bottom of the page.
I sold a cva apolla to a good friend of mine and bought another cva inline. I am going to be sending some emails,starting with cva and then cabelas.

Thanks for the info guys, but I ended up buying an Omega. I've read nothing but great things on the net about them, and have read mixed reviews on CVA so I went the Omega route.

As far as bullets go, I was going to try the SST's, the Shockwaves, and XTP's. I don't know anything about powders though. I've been reading about 777 and it being corrosive? Is this true? I was leaning towards pyrodex pellets or Shockey sticks. Which one is cleaner and non-corrosive?

I've been reading quite a bit about the 209 being too hot a primer for muzzleloaders and using a small rifle primer inside a bushing to substitute and achieve more uniformity. Has anyone tried this?

Thanks,
Mike

quote:

Originally posted by beretta96:
I've been reading quite a bit about the 209 being too hot a primer for muzzleloaders and using a small rifle primer inside a bushing to substitute and achieve more uniformity. Has anyone tried this?

Thanks,
Mike

Most inlines,you can buy a different breech plug for whatever ignition type you choose. percussion caps,musket caps or 209's.

Also,I emailed cabelas about the cva barrel problem and they send me back a email from cva-bpi.

here is the email to cabelas,from cva

"I received link to the “Modern Muzzleloader†web site that you sent. Thanks for forwarding it on to me.



Over the past 5 years or so we have been addressing a limited number of consumer and retailer questions and concerns regarding a series of postings on various web sites. Almost all of these inquiries noted “articles†by a Mr. Randy Wakeman -- a self-proclaimed “gun writer†who, to my knowledge, appears only on the Internet. Apparently, this “Modern Muzzleloader†site is the work of Mr. Wakeman and is sponsored by Savage Arms (the makers of a “smokeless muzzleloaderâ€), among other manufacturers.



In general, the premises put forth by Mr. Wakeman are the following:



Steel from Spain is not of the same quality as steel from the USA.
Proof marks on Spanish made muzzleloaders indicate that they will not sustain the pressures of “magnum charges.â€
BPI should publicize the maximum pressures that their barrels will sustain.
CVA had a recall of some gun models made in 1995 and 1996 and, therefore, the guns made by the same factory today are unsafe.


As for the first issue, the steel used in all BPI muzzleloaders is of virtually the identical chemical composition as that used by Knight’s barrel making facility. In today’s world, steel is a commodity. Certainly, the country in which a particular steel is produced has nothing to do with either its quality or its suitability for use in muzzleloading rifle barrels.



Second, the “proof marks†that were used on CVA barrels from the early 1980’s until last year have never been indicators of “maximum pressure ratings†-- but rather were minimum pressure standards that were established back in the patched round ball days. This mark was the same on all guns produced during that time period – including flintlocks, side-locks, in-lines and magnum in-lines. All “magnum guns†that we have ever produced have been clearly marked as such, and the safe loading instructions have been included with each gun.



As for actual pressure ratings, Mr. Wakeman and others have asked that we release data on the maximum sustainable pressures for our guns. We began receiving requests for this information about the time that the “smokeless powder muzzleloader†was introduced by Savage Arms several years ago. Apparently, some of the more “creative†shooters out there were attempting to push the limits with various “hot loads†consisting either partially or totally of modern smokeless powder. BPI does not release this pressure information (nor does Knight or T/C); as to do so would only encourage such experimentation. Maximum safe loads for each gun are clearly stated in the instructions provided for each gun model. Similarly, Goodyear does not tell consumers at what PSI a tire will explode, but instead provides recommended safe pressure ranges.



As for the fourth point, regarding the recall, yes, CVA in-lines made in 1995 and 1996 were voluntarily recalled back in 1997. That recall continues today, and BPI has publicized it in both print advertising and on our web site. It is no secret. If a consumer chooses not to buy our product because we had a recall almost decade ago, that is certainly their right. However, as quite a few of the top gun manufacturers have instituted product recalls at one time or another, anyone making their purchasing decisions on this basis might find their choices somewhat limited.



Jerry, I hope that this adequately explains BPI’s position on these issues. Obviously, all of us here at BPI find these kinds of attacks disheartening, as we all hunt with and shoot our guns all the time – certainly shooting more rounds that anyone else. The point being: If we did not think our guns were safe, would we be using them? Add to that the fact that all of the above information has been provided to Mr. Wakeman and others in answer to these “charges.†Unfortunately, unlike in the legitimate hunting/gun press, there are no fact checkers for the Internet -- and in this case, as in many others, the Internet has become the last refuge for those with the inclination, for whatever reasons, to spread such disinformation.



Again, thanks for making us aware of the “Modern Muzzleloader†site. If you, or anyone else at Cabela’s, have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to call me directly.



Best regards, "










President & COO

quote:

If that were so, then my Knight rifle wouldn't get a crud ring with Triple Seven, would it ?? Perhaps you don't know what a crud ring is.

well ,by now its very obvious that have not a clue and have not discussed the crud ring problem with the higherups at TC. SO YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU WISH. i'm still getting crud rings with anything i shoot in the triumph and a close friend is having the same problem with his omega.

also i have a friend that is sponcored by knight ,he says that 777 primers are the dirtyest primers on the market even thou they are advertised as being one of the cleanest burning. 777 primers will clog the canal in my breech plug between the primer and the flash hole in just a few shots. i stopped useing them months ago. so far the shockeys gold works best with win209's ,but its still cruding up bad UNLIKE any other brand of ML i've shot . you set down on the bench with friends that are shooting ,CVA,TRADITIONS,KNIGHT,NEF and shoot a few rounds and have to stop and clean before you load in 2-3 shots. and they are shooting the same loads and can go 10-15 rounds before there barrels show any buildup. it doesn't take long before you figure it out. my guess is you have only used a certain brand and really haven't compared them enough to know the differents.
TC has hinted that one major problem may be that some of there barrels may be just a little under sized which they say changes everything. this would explain some guns having more problems with buildup than others in the same brand.

quote:

Originally posted by beretta96:
Hi guys,

I tried hunting this year with a borowed ML, it was the T/C Omega in blued version. Had a blast...pardon the pun.

I have been debating on which to buy, his was very accurate even with open sites. I would prefer stainless since I believe it would avoid all rust possibilities. My choices are either the CVA Kodiak in nickel finish/synthetic, or the T/C Omega in stainless/synthetic.

I have no knowledge at all about muzzleloaders about rusting, cleaning, treatment, accessories etc...so any help is extremely appreciated.

Thanks,

As others have said, go with the T/C. As a gunsmith, I rarely have to work on one, but have a lot of CVA's come in. BTW, don't think stainess will "would avoid all rust possibilities". It won't ! It will help, but you still need to clean & apply a rust preventive after shooting.
The stainless steel used by most American mfrs is 416, which is very strong, and the same used in CF rifles. AFIK, Green Mtn is still making Knight barrels which accounts for their accuracy.

brayhaven,what so accurate about a knight,i have yet to see a knight that would shoot with my old cva. and everyone i know that owns one has had replaced parts on them. around here knight parts are in gun shops everywhere ,any other brand you have order parts for because they rarely wear out like knights do. i watched lots of new knight being tested before they ever hit the market and from what i've seen i wouldn't own one long if you gave it to me.

finally got some decent weather to try out my Omega. What an awesome inline.

I was using 777 magnums, federal primers and tried the 250gr shockwave, 250gr SSt and the 300gr bonded shockwave.

Accuracy was just as good with all three. I followed the video's instructions with a wet patch then a dry after each round. No crud ring, easy seating and I found the 777 mags to be a really clean powder.

I was using open sights for now and I still managed to get 2" groups at 100 yards off a rest. I'll install this winter a 2x7x32 and this should really help.

Extremely impressed so far.

glad you got a ML, welcome to the world of blackpowder. i love my omega, and bought dad one for Christmas last year, his is shooting great too. i prefer loose powder just so i can really dial in my loadings, but 110gr of 777 with a 250gr shockwave seems to be my ticket. good luck.