....please bear with me on this as I have absolutely no idea what I am doing, but my question is can the .32 win.spl be loaded with black powder?..has anyone done this that can give me some info, or am I going to blow myself up??
My idea was to convert a Martini cadet to .32 win. spl using the original barrel but , theoretically at this point ,using light loads of black powder .....any thoughts ??

Roger

Yes, The Winchester Model 1894 .32 W.S. uses a slower twist 1-16 for the use of black, or smokeless powder. The thought was that since smokeless powder was fairly new at the time. If the shooter wanted to use black powder he could with desent results. A charge of 40 grs of black powder behand a 170 gr bullet got over 1400 FPS. The 1894's in .30-30 with the smaller bore, and faster twist did not do well with black powder.

..........OK,slight change of idea....lets go to the 32-40 case instead and use a 120 to 150 gr cast bullet.....ideas ??

Roger

Which black powder are you using ?

2FF, 3FFF ,4FFFF ?

I would think it would make a difference .

......not a clue, thats why I'm asking
This is my first foray into black powder.....be gentle with me

Roger

You can load any cartridge w/ black powder and get results, 32 Winchester Special included.
The 303British cartridge was originally a BP loaded round..

I've never quite believed the line about the 32Special being brought out to satisfy both smokeless and BP shooters though.

The 1894 was already chambered for the 32-40 cartridge at the time.
It was loaded in both BP and smokeless.
In BP load it used a 165gr bullet w/40gr BP for 1400fps.
Bullet diameter the same as 32Special. Available in the '94 till WW2.

The 30-30 was intro'd as strictly a smokeless cartridge in 1895.
32Spec was introduced in 1901.
Winchester wasn't a rearward looking company.
Slower twist in 32 is needed when compared to 30-30.. and the same weight bullet is being used.

I don't doubt for a minute that many reloaded the cartridge with BP back in the day. Old habits are hard to break and Winchester was more than happy to accomodate those that may have wanted to do so.
But for it being the primary reason for the birth of the cartridge itself,,I doubt it. More like a total smokeless replacement for the 32-40.
Just my .02

Thanks for the reply and the information, but without appearing rude, I need some specific details.....would this combination work?..32-40 case;black powder;martini cadet( with the correct bullet of course )??....Which black powder; how much powder?....Would the 165gr cast bullet stabilise in the 1:16 twist??

I realise I'm asking a lot but if someone has the answers or any relative information , it would be greatly appreciated.

Roger

Insomuch as the .32-40 was named for the diameter of its bullets and the amount of black powder used behind them, seems to me like that would be a darned good place to start.

In a small case such as that, I'd probably start with FFG powder and a bullet of no more than 190 grains, probably more like 165 grains.

The .32-40 was a very excellent deer gun up to 125 yards or so, and an even better target rifle chambering. In a good rifle, with a skilled shooter, it would kill whitetail deer well at 40 rods (220 yards).

It would be a splendid cartridge for a Martini.

As to the twist, 1 turn in 16" was the Winchester factory twist in the Model 94s chambered for the .32-40, propelled at about 1,440 fps. It worked just fine until the rifling became a bit worn. There are at least two ways a person could manage that potential problem...one would be to use a faster twist to start with, but my preferred way would be to use a slightly larger cast bullet diameter when the barrel became worn, to assure a good close fit to the throat and groove diameters of the barrel and a good "grab" of the bullets by the rifling.

One thing for sure, NO-ONE is going to be able to tell you for certain what will work best in YOUR barrel.

As in all rifles, you'll just have to try various things until you find what works best for you and your gun.

Riflery is not solely a science. It is also partly art, just like the practice of medicine.

Thanks for that, at least now I have enough information to believe that this is a viable project.
First thing would be to slug the bore to determine a diameter for a cast bullet, find a suitable reamer,grab some cases,FFG powder and see what happens.......hopefully not too big a bang
The main reason for this project was to see if I could build a useable rifle with minimum modifications and manufacture as many components myself as is possible;cases from old 30-30's;cast my own bullets; etc.

Roger

When the flood of Martini Cadets hit the USA here years ago many were rechambered to 32-20 for better sales.

Many were also rechambered to 32 Winchester Special by people trying to get more power out of the little rifles.
Everbody 'needs' a deer gun in the US you know!

The cartridge fit OK thru the action AFAI can remember, but the recoil was on the harsh side w/factory ammo in the light weight Cadets.

I would think the 32-40 would be an excellent choice especially in BP loading. Just being a classic cartridge would make it my choice, though the 32Winchester Special would fill the need also in a BP loading in the Cadet most likely.

It was originally a target round anyway,,the 32-40 Ballard, and a favorite of the American single shot target shooters.

FFG, 40grs of it, the original load was a 165 grain lead bullet flat nose, but you can use any style in the single shot. You can even experiment a bit with paperpatching undersize bullets to bring them up to bore size for the Cadet.

Sounds like a fun project.

Several years ago I had a Cadet rifle that had been rechambered to 32 Win Special. The recoil was brutal. So I loaded it with Speer jacketed bullets made for the 32-20. It shot those very well at 50yds and recoil was imperceptible. I suspect the bore was an unaltered .310 Cadet bore made for .314" bullets. The .3125" bullets made for the 32-20 weren't too far off. The 32 Win Special uses .321" bullets and the tight fit in the Cadet bore might have contributed to the recoil. I remember having to crimp the case mouths to keep the bullets from falling into the cases but loading was uneventful otherwise. I used smokeless powder but I don't remember the load.

I have a cadet that was rechambered to 32 Special and restocked in highly figured curly maple. The wood adds a little weight, but it still weighs around 6 pounds. I don't find the recoil bad at all. I shoot the same reloads that I use in my 94 Winchster, standard 170 grain jacketed bullets and a middle-of-the-road powder charge. I killed a coyote with it this spring after a pack of them killed a newborn calf.

#1). Yes, I have read a number of times that the .32 Win Special was designed around the possible reloading with black powder and the slightly larger bullet, .321, and black powder worked much better than possible with the .30/30 which was the hot, new smokeless item then.

#2). I have read of cadets redone/re-chambered to .30/30 and the case is the same, different neck diameters. I thought the bore was around .310 so I don't understand your plan to push a .321 bullet down a .310 bore. Not terribly unsafe, but accuracy is POOR.

#3). As suggested, the .32/40 was a Ballard target cartridge of extremely great rep on the target range. You could form brass by shoving .30/30 cases into a die to straighten out the sides, no shoulder... Again, bullet is in the .32 range while the .310 Cadet...???

#4). Why black powder? Mess and corrosive and...

#5). I would lean toward slightly more modern calibers. .32/20 is oft discussed. I believe more than one were re barreled to .38/.357 Magnum. I wonder about the new .327 Fed Magnum.

Interestingly to me, often the performance of an old black powder "old west" cartridge can be duplicated with a much smaller modern cartridge working at much higher smokeless pressures. I believe the new .460 S&W magnum is close to the old .45/70 in all but its hottest loads.

Best of luck to you whatever you decide. Anything is possible with enough money. Happy Trails.

I think the .32 Special was used simply to have an up to date .32 in the 94 Winchester. A full pressure smokeless load in a .32-40 Ballard might have damaged the rifle. They are not very strong.

Would love to see if that last run of Martini's will be continued as promised.

As a point of interest, in following the usual British system, the bore in martini cadets are .310 land diameter (Like the .300 H&H, .303 British, etc. and unlike the .416 Rigby etc.) The grove diameter in .310 cadet martinis runs anywhere from .319 to .324. I have slugged the bores of several to verify this. My current cadet has a .323 bore diameter (8 mm).

If you are interested in shooting black powder loads in a .32 Special, there was an excellent article on doing so in the Black Powder Cartridge News within the last year or so.

Before you start dribbling black powder into a brass case....I'd like to recommend you have a conversation with the folks at Buffalo Arms (buffaloarms.com)on the topic of black powder cartridge loading. I've done a fair amount of BPCR shooting with the 45/70. When I was getting started, those folks were a HUGE help. Loading black is a bit different than loading smkeless...actually...IMHO...it's a LOT different. Do some learning then ENJOY.

Unless you absolutely possitively wanted to load BP then the new Hornady manual has some great loads using the leverevolution powder.Personally I have had great results with 3031.

NOt only the brass case problem but black in a Win. 94 would require cleaningin the bathtub after takeing it completel apart..There is a place for black powder and its not in modern firearms IMO, Ive seen too many old Winchester that have been ruined by black powder,not to mention high dollar shotguns of yesteryear..Just my two bits.

Cleaning black powder fouling is not hard, and it is not very corrosive; just use water and clean out your bore and wipe fouling off the action. I use BP in a Marlin 38-56 all the time; no issues. Also, in a 76, 50-95 and a 45-60, and in several single shots.
It was the corrosive primers and caps of old that made all the old guns rust away. Not the powder. You will have to wash your brass in soapy water, I fill them with vinegar; that eats out the fouling from inside the cases.
As for the 32 Special being developed for black powder; I have read some original Winchester literature; Yes, it was intended for reloading with BP; as stated above, reloading smokeless was not a safe thing, but BP was.
How much to use; fill your case up with 2 or 3FG. Use a card wad under the lead bullet. You must have some way to keep the fouling soft; I use ten precent of 5744, but in the old days they used bullets with large grease grooves, and maybe a lube wad under the bullet. Duplex loading is easier.
Do not let the nay sayers scare you from using BP in a cartridge; it is historic, fun, easy, and no, it will not ruin your rifle. I do a LOT of it, and you can PM me if you want.

well I disagree with that in that Im sure it works for you as your aware, but for someone that admits he has no experience??? I question your advise and will by a "nay sayer"

I have seen lever guns ruined by black powder and it is corrosive otherwise one wouldn't be so carefull to not let them sit without cleaning. that stuff will seeped into the works and then cleaned but not with water. I wouldn't even consider pouring water in the action of any of my Winchesters lever guns, not to mention barrels ruined..but to each his own on that, just an opposing view.

You don't pour water into the action; no need for that,
The ruined old rifles were ruined by the corrosive primers; not the black powder.
Trust me, it is easy to use black powder in cartridge rifles; and that experience only takes one day to acquire.
You should try it.
Oh, if you use a duplex load, with ten percent of smokeless, I use 5744, there will be no fouling anyway. Your bore will stay clean.

Original question: Can one load a .32 Winchester Special (or .32-40) with black powder and enjoy shooting it in a Martini Cadet? (once you know the bore, groove and twist dimensions, of course)

Absolutely, you will enjoy it a lot and probably become addicted to BP; just so you know...

But it is also true that loading cartridges with BP is quite different than just picking an arbitrary charge and dumping it in under any old bullet, lead or otherwise.

Here are a few basics that have worked for me :

The case needs to be full to the base of the bullet with BP loading, better yet with a bit of compression. You can regulate the power a bit by choosing different granulations or even brands of BP, but the case needs to be full.

Lead bullets for use with BP need to be soft.

So does the lube. Use only specifically BP lube. It will keep the fouling soft and soft fouling promotes good accuracy and much easier cleaning.

Smooth barrel interiors work vastly better than ones with any roughness. Rough bores foul like crazy and are frustrating to clean well.

You will need to wash your brass in water. Every single piece, every time. BP residue will eat brass like mad. But -

BP residue of itself is not that hard on steel in my experience. Many caveats and exceptions here, but cleaning a rifle (or shotgun or even pistol) after shooting with BP is, in my opinion, a lot more pleasant than cleaning smokeless and copper fouling. BP clean up can't wait, though, like smokeless can. One other note about corrosion - nearly all the BP substitutes, like Pyrodex and 777 for instance, do pretty much eliminate fouling but they are corrosive as hell on both brass and steel! They don't stink right, either.

.32 caliber is pretty small for BP and fouling may build up pretty rapidly. My personal preference in such a small bore would be a smaller cartridge than either the .32 Special or .32-40, but that's just my personal preference. The .32-40 certainly has a great reputation as a BP target round.

Buffalo Arms is Your Friend! You would probably also enjoy and get a lot out of reading some of Mike Venturino's books, specifically "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" and "Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West". Lots of BP loading techniques, ammo lore and explanations of the pitfalls involved.

This post was from 2012....he's probably worked it out by now :-)

......well Biebs, I didn't think it was actually that long ago,could be wrong....time flies....since my move to Tassie, this will be my first chance to get back to this project....thanks Steve, thats the best information I've had so far, hopefully I'll have something to show in the next couple of months

Roger

Using duplex loads with ten percent of smokeless is the best way to make bp cartridge shooting really easy, especially for a 32 caliber. Otherwise you will be fighting fouling and your accuracy will be good for only 3 shots, even with a grease wad.
Do not be afraid of black powder; it is not the monster that some make it out to be. Corrosive caps and primers; that was the real culprit. And never shoot Pyrodes; the crap is very corrosive.

......once again, BP ignorant here....please explain duplex load

Roger

In the black powder context, duplex loading is the practice of putting a small amount, say 5% - 10% of the total charge, of an appropriate smokeless powder in the case first, then filling the remainder of the volume with black powder. This significantly reduces BP fouling.

Another great book for all kinds of loading techniques - BP, duplex and even smokeless - is Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle". It is a wealth of information and very well written.

Right; and "significantly", means, "totally"; I use ten percent of 5744 in several different BP cartridges; 45-90, 45-70, 38-56, 40-65, 38-55; just to name a few that I shoot. And, each grain of smokeless contributes 3 grains equivalent of black, so with a 45-90, which does not hold 90 grains of black anyway, if you use 70 grains of GOEX cartridge, which I do, and 7 grains of smokeless, then you are back at 91 grains equivalent. Follow that? I started off many years ago with grease wads; that works, sort of, but are a pain to load. Duplex, whilst not totally in the original 1880 spirit of things, works so well that you will not be afraid of black powder again.
Brass? Fouling is greatly reduced, and I put vinegar in them and that fizzes out all the fouling and then wash them with a brush and water; they will be clean. Rifle; they do not get very dirty and clean as if you were shooting smokeless powder. No, the action is not full of fouling as some have suggested. And the bore stays bright.
NOTE; do not go over ten percent; Lyman did tests on that and once you get any significant amount of smokeless in the load, pressures start to go up to smokeless levels; not a good thing in old rifles.

I might give it a try in my 25-35 and 30-30, not much could do damage to those two that hasn't already been done!! but both still shoot great..Giving it some thought, yes it could have been primers as opposed to powder..just never gave it any thought.

One of my best that I liked was doing a conversion on a M.H action W/ a Douglas bbl.from .303 Brit. to .25-303 (call it a Krag;the dims are the same.)Done in a A.K. Imp.it is one sweet round. Still a good idea but I must mention that after all the years of building wildcats;everytime I thought of something that has never been doe before,I pick up the book + Parker was thjere at least 20 years before.Thank God for prophets.

Based on that DCPD how does one explain how some of the old black powder flint locks get so plumb et up..Does not the moisture in the air create rust and pits on metal..

This is an old thread but I thought I would see if there is still a following.

The original poster inquired about BP in a 310 Cadet rechambered in 32 Win Special.

Recently I have been interested in this subject as I have the same rifle. In my case the slugged barrel has .311/.316 rifling, making the normal .321 factory 32 Winchester Special unuseable.

In addition my twist rate is about 1/20 which is too slow for the normal 170 grain bullets in the 32 Win. Sp.

I have shot a lot of Black in many of the straight wall cases (35-40 Maynard / 38-55 / 45-70 etc) but never in a bottle neck although I have a set of 38-56 Winchester dies waiting for a future project.

My thanks to those that have offered their 'duplex loading' advice.

So if the OP "yumastepside" is still listening, please tell us how you made out on your efforts.

For that matter, anyone else has a similar experience with the 32 Win Sp conversion in the Martini Cadet, please let me know your experience... TIA rjm

I have a Winchester Model 64 in 32 WS in the Classifieds if anyone wants to play with that caliber. I've never shot smokeless in mine.