I am toying with buying a Classic Hawkin Flintlock Kit rifle from Cabela's and since I don't know diddly-squat about flintlocks and very little about muzzleloading (presently have an American by Knight), I was wondering what I was in for. I've read where there are some things that need to be "tweaked" on kit guns. However, I don't even know what a "fissen" is. All help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mike

To be absolutely honest with you I wouldn't start shooting a flinter as my first "traditional" muzzleloader. There are all kinds of tricks of the trade that are built up over several years of shooting a flintlock that are hard to work out by yourself. If you have a friend thats had one and shot one for awhile then go for it. If not I'd really recommend a percussion rifle. Oh by the way the frizzen is the part of the lock that is struck by the flint that produces the spark that ignites the powder in the pan that is supposed to ignite the main charge in the barrel.

Muzzle, sounds like from your handle you've fired a flintlock a time or two yourself. And.....with that thought in mind, and having my heart set on a flintlock, maybe I could pick your brain for help when needed. Shooting a flintlock appears to be fun and mastering the intricate "whatevers" sounds like a challenge. You can tell me, "I told you so later, okay"? And instead of the Cabela's Hawkin Kit I've already changed my mind to a Lyman Great Plains Hunter .54 caliber, 1 in 31 twist and 32" barrel. Would this be a good starter flintlock? Thanks, Mike

Lyman makes a pretty good rifle. And yes I'd be glad to help you along the way if you go that route. A few years ago I was a flintlock shooter for the United States International Muzzleloading Team but I can guarantee that I only know 1/1000th of what it takes to know it all.
If you get the flinter the first thing I would tell you to do is to contact Track of the Wolf and order some hand knapped flints from them. Let me know what I can help you with.

Fourtails:

The Lyman IS a good choice. My only question is whether you will be shooting Round Ball much. The 1x32" twist was really set up for Saboted bullets and altho it will handle reduced round ball loads reasonably well, The Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .54 with a 1x60" is a much better choice for round ball loads.

There are a couple flint shooters here so ask away. Likely they all will agree that the lock of a flinter is like your central nervous system. If it don't work nothing will. A good lock in a flinter is priceless.

As far as kits go there is really only one critical area to watch out for � that being the location of the touch hole/drum with the lock. Generally when building you inlet the barrel first and then the breach plug and tang. The location of the touch hole is determined based on the radius of the liner (edge to center of hole). The center of the hole should bisect the center of the pan fore and aft while also bisecting the line horizontal line at the top of the pan where the bottom of the frizzen rests on the pan when closed. The trigger location is then placed in relation the sear bar with fore and aft placement from the trigger pivot based on desired weight of pull. The tail of the trigger bar should also be lower than the pivot for best leverage (talking single triggers here). The Length of pull is measured based on the location of the trigger shoe (the part of the trigger your finger depresses). These dimensions are best controlled without the lock or trigger mortises pre-cut. Kits have all these locations precut for you so you have to look at the relation ship between many things at the same time to get correct fit and locations. This allows assembly time to be shortened but less flexibility is locating items. With a kit you need to evaluate the amount of material available in the lock mortise that will be available for optimal positioning of the lock relative to the amount of material that can be used to adjust the location of the barrel breach. In other words to may have to adjust both the position of the barrel and the lock in order to have your touch hole located at the sunset position centered on the pan. You also need to be aware of the barrel pin mortise that is likely also precut and how your repositioning of the barrel will effect this. Normally there is always a little wiggle room to line things up so do not let this scare you away from kits. Many a nice rifle has been assembled from kits. Positioning of hardware is just not as straight forward is all. Likely you will also have double set triggers. The locks sear bar should be located at the �V� intersection formed by the two trigger bars.

I have built several kits and have help other build a few also. I have also stocked a rifle from a blank and am trying to find time to build another from a blank. The most important thing in assembling your own is to go slow, measure twice or three time before you cut, use lots of color transfer, and when in doubt or unsure � ask lots of questions.

Guys, I had been told by Hawkin Rifles that if I was going to be shooting conicals I should go with the 1 in 32 twist. I would be able to shoot round ball also. However, conicals were going to be the primary projecticle. And, with this rifle (Lyman Great Plains Hunter) I could later transfer or upgrade to a Hawkin with little difficulty-same style of rifle. I've printed the above to keep for reference and am looking forward to hearing from Cabela's to see if what I want can be special ordered. Haven't heard from them as of yet. Seems Lyman is hard to get ahold of some times but I have been out of town for 36 hours and maybe they missed me. Thanks again for the help and will post when it arrives. Mike

It's me again. Just talked to Cabela's and Lyman doesn't have what I want in a kit so I'm getting the assembled model. Any suggestions on what I need to do first before I fire it? Other than contact Track of the Wolf for a flint striker that is. Thanks, Mike

Generally twist rates of 1:56 and slower are best for round ball when talking .50 cal and larger. Twist rates of 1:48 are compromise twists and often time work for both round ball and conical but are too slow for sabot. Twist rates of 1:32 are generally optimised for conical and may shoot round ball with light loads. These light loads would be suitable for plinking or for hunting small game. Twist rates faster than 1:32 are optimised more for sabot and again MAY shoot roundballs adequately with light loads for paper and small game.

It is your rifle ... order what you want, but for most people flintlock = patched round ball.

For what it is worth ....

The Hawkin rifle:

Many companies today offer a Hawkin rifle but what they really are offering is a rifle of the general pattern that would have been available on the plains after say 1830 or 1820. A true replica of a Hawkin has very specific features not fully replicated by ANY mass produced rifle although the Lyman is the closest though it is closer to the Leman rifles of the day.

54JNoll, can I get the 1 in 48 twist and shoot both conical and patched ball? Or what specifically do I want for the patched ball as far as rate of twist? Thanks, Mike

FourTails,

If you are looking at only shooting patched round ball than twist rates of 1:56 and slower work well. Actually 1:56 works well with modest to heaveier loads as does 1:60 and 1:66. 1:70+ twists work best with heavy loads. And if you want to shoot round ball with real heavy loads you need to look at a custom rifled barrel using the Forsyth style of rifling with very slow 1:104 and slower twist though this is generally used for really large bore rifles .62 cal and bigger. But then again many slow twist barrels work well with half or near-half charges when plinking. No real hard and fasts. But generally speaking if you want to shoot patched round ball with real heavy loads than the slower the twist the better.

The 1:48 twist CAN be made to shoot both patched round ball and connical with loads adequate for deer sized game. As the twist rate increases loads for patched round ball generally begin to get more finicky. A lot of this has to do with the width of the lands and depth of the rifling and how tight your load combo is. A round ball has very little bearing surface gripping the rifling. As a result it is possible to push the ball so fast that it skips over the rifling instead of engadging it and having spin imparted. Skipping leads to poor groups.

The faster twists are for longer bullets which have much greater bearing surfaceing to engage the rifling.

So if you want to shoot only connicals and sabot get a faster twist. If you want to shoot round ball get a slower twist and if you may want to shoot both get 1:48. As an asside though I do know several people who have not managed to get there 1:48 rifles to shoot well with both styles of bullets. The vast majority of 1:48 shooters have managed to work up good loads for both connicals and round ball but the possibility is always there.

There is also a group of builders who prefer to try and match the caliber to its optimla twist rate. There is a formula for that but I have never really gotten too wrapped up in that. There are an aufull lot of custom barrel makers whose reputations are built on accurate barrels for target and hunting. What I did pay attention to though on reading that article was that larger calibers require slower twist for patched round ball than slower cals. 1:56 to 1:66 work well for most cals from .45 to .54 cal. 1:66 to 1:70's work well for the .58 to .62 cals and unless you really want to shoot monster loads no need to go much slower than the 1:70's for twist. 1:48 is a very good near optimal round ball twist for the .32, .36, and .40 cal rifles.

I'm back in town. And I think I have decided on the .54 cal. with 1 in 32 twist. Will be shooting 405 grain maxi ball (conicals) but am uncertain now on how much powder to dump in the hole? On my old (nearly new) in-line muzzle loader I was using 180 grain .45 cal. pistol bullets in the sabots for my .50 cal. muzzleloader with 85 grains of pyrodex powder. This (with the 405 grain non-saboted bullet is a cat of another color. I've heard so many conflicting opinions on what powder to use my head is spinning. Elephant powder from Upper Missouri Trading Co has been recommended. The catch, one has to buy 25 pounds of the stuff. But their price is the best I've found so far. Is it REAL Black Powder or just what is called Black Powder nowadays? I've believe I want the real stuff for better ignition from the flint strike, right? And, last but not least, for the moment anyway, what kind of flints do I want to get, the saw cut, or knapped? I certainly like the knapped ones by that guy whom I can't remember just now. Thanks again for the help. Mike

If you get the flinter, you will have . . . HAVE to get the "PYRO" word out of your vocabulary and talk REAL black powder.

You may want to confirm a source of the real stuff before you go to buying any gun.

Just a thought!
LouisB

TC Louis, Gotcha on the "P_ _ _." Upper Missouri Trading Company sells quite a few Black Powders but I don't know which one to chose. The Elephant Powder can looks neat but does it work? Thanks, Mike

I've tried Elephant and it's okay but is a little (in my opinon)harder to get to ignite. You may have a slight hang fire when using it. I've also found it to be a little dirtier than some other powders. If you can find it the Swiss powder is excellent for flinters as is Goex.

Oh, almost forgot, get the knapped black flints. English or German. Try them out bevel up or bevel down and see which strikes best. Ideally it should point towards the touch hole at the end of it's travel.

Thanks again for the information. I'm going with the English black knapped flints and Goex powder.About how many spare flints should I keep on hand when going to the range to "tweak" my smokepole in? Are there any other particular things that I might need while at the range that come in handy that differ from the in-line muzzle loader shooting?

Fourtails,

These guys have given you excellent comments! I have been away for a few weeks...otherwise I would have joined in earlier. On going to the range - remember this "patience is a virtue". Flinters are a unique breed of fun! The first thing you will notice on your complete rifle is a problem with rapid ignition. Most complete rifles have a "stock" touch hole liner. This is a factory's poor attempt at an efficient ignition porthole. Second you will have a "rough" pan on your lock. This attracts moisture and encourages fouling and slows ignition. I run a Cabella's .54 Hawken Flinter - before I was satisfied with the performance of the rifle I spent a lot of time "tweeking" the poor thing in. A Dremel tool with a polishing media and tip will take care of the pan - this needs to be mirror polished - the touch hole liner needs to be coned on the inside and slightly coned on the outside with no more than a 1/16" hole connecting the main charge to the pan charge. I can give you specifics on this if you are interested. With patience you can make the rifle shoot beautifully. Investarms is a company that makes both the Lyman and Cabella's rifles. I would not waste my time or patience with any propellant other than Goex Black Powder in either FFG or FFFG as a main charge (or Swiss) and the same brands in FFFG as a prime powder. If you try other powders (substitutes) you are playing with hang-fires and grief! I have tried them all and passed the un-used portions on to my son and his cap-lock percussion rifle. The twist rate suggestions you received are on the money - think about a minnie ball before you settle on the maxi-style projectile. The key to the whole thing is run what works with the particular rifle.
Anyway - I will quit rambling. Lot's of information is available to help you thru your learning curve with a flinter - 12 shots per flint is about what some say is average. It all depends on the lock. My lock can survive with one flint for about 20 shots without any misfires. Extras can't help!
Keep us informed of your progress
Eric

Eric Julsrud, welcome to the "help Mikey who knows nothing about flintlocks but is willing to learn FORUM". I didn't realize just how much I did not know about Black Powder shooting and can now appreciate how much more there is to learn. Forgive me if I use a swear word here but would you know anything or anywhere I could purchase a yellow (here goes), French, flint that I have heard are excellent in quality. Hopefully they are like French fries and the name is all that applies. Anyway, thanks for the info on the powder and I have located a place here in town that sells it (Goex FFg and FFFFg) for about $15 or $16 per pound. And Coonies in New Mexico has quoted me a price of $249.75 for 25 pounds delivered. I still can't remember where I saw a picture of the guy knapping the either German or English flints or where to buy them?? I'll take the advice on all that you have offered and keep you all posted on how it is progressing. As Alvin York said in the movie SERGANT YORK, "I beah thankin' ya!" Mike

Not a clue for the "French" flints. I do know that in my experience the Black English are far more superior to anything I have yet tried. Agates are too brittle and dull easily, synthetics are a pain....chewed up my frizzen and are a pain to sharpen. Anyway....Black English flints are easily sharpened (knapped) with nothing more than a piece of brass rod or brass dowel. No need to invest in the fancy hammers or other doo-dads. I don't know if I would run out an buy a full 25lbs of powder right off of the bat. You need an appropriate magazine for that much powder! FFFG powder will last a long time (1lb's worth anyway) Some rifle's may or may not appreciate FFG - some like FFFG. I would buy a 1lb of each and play around before I make the plunge on 25lbs. Anyway - the key to sucess is patience and trial and error. There are lots of web-sites out there with good tricks and advice on by-passing many of the common pit-falls associated with flint shooting. Some are really overboard in their suggestions unless you are striving to be a competition shooter. The biggest and badest advice I wish I had someone who handed me the day I opened my first rifle is this - take the "stock" touchhole liner and huck it in the trash. Second - polish the living hell out of your pan. Make your own touch hole liners from stainless percussion nipples or buy White lightning liners from Jim Chambers Flintlocks. With a good polished pan and a proper liner you will never hear the flint hit the frizzen! The joy of shooting a flinter is when you can duplicate the speed of the percussion without trying - I'll shut up now.....
Let us know of your progress
Eric

Eric, one last question before I head out of town again. Where or how do I contact Jim Chambers Flintlocks for the White lighting liners and who has the Black English flints? Later on I may need the figures for honing out of the liner. Thanks, Mike

Four Tails, try Track Of The Wolf for most everything you'll need. Good bunch of people there.

Thanks for the tip on Track of the Wolf. Mike

Fourtails,

head to http://flintlocks.com to track down the white lightning liners. This is Jim Chamber's Flintlock's homepage. Navigate to the parts/supplies area of the page. They aren't too spendy but depending ont the particular rifle you end up with you might need the drill/tap kit to re-thread your liner hole. I can provide you with a hole slew of links for good reading on flinter's....most of all check out the http://www.thegunworks.com for the flints. They have a massive catalog that is worth the money. These guys are local to me - the only reason why I use them, not to mention good people. The Track of the Wolf, Green Mountain, etc., etc. Lot's of people out there for parts and supplies. If you are interested I would also look up the http://www.nmlra.org website for some other links.....this is the National Muzzleloader Rifle Assoc. page. Best of Luck - let me know if you are needing the particulars on making your own liners.
Eric

Eric, I got my Great Plains Hunter in a few days ago and will be going to the range to try it out in yet a few more days. I'm going to see just how "long" the delay time is on this thing before I change out the liner. I can however immediately see just by "eyeballing" the present liner why the other one would seem to work better. This one has a square face with a slot in it whereas the other one has a conical opening where the sparks would slide into the hole more easily. That is the theory, right? Anyway, I'll keep you posted as to how it goes. Later, Mike

Mikey; I just got onto this thread and would like to say something that the others missed. Easy guys I'm not about to critisize. I just wanted to remind you to relax and enjoy yourself. B/P Traditional shooting is a hoot. Just wait till you get to go out for gophers and tree rats. derf

Just downloaded Ross Seyfrieds article in Black Powder on the flintlock and already I may have a problem. The touchhole in my Great Plains Hunter is slightly back of the bottom of the pan. It does look like it is about to the top of the pan so I guess that is alright. If a touch hole is not centered in the pan is it best to err on the back side or front side of the middle of the pan? Col. Hawker's book as referenced by Ross Seyfried stated the hole should be centered in the pan. And, when fire is ignited it goes up and out. The touch hole should be located approximately 1/16th inch above the bottom of the pan or near the top of the pan. Would it be advisable before I go any further to get the touch hole/pan senerio adjusted before I shoot it? Thanks, Mike

FT,

Try it. Then decide if you want to redrill and line the touchhole.

The touchhole must be at the top of the pan and it is best that it is centered. This ensures that a maximum amount of heat is concentrated on the touchhole and transfered down the touchhole as directly as possible to the charge. This directness aids ignition because it doesn't rob the prime of heat. Heat is what ignites the charge. If the touchhole is to the front or rear is immaterial as theoretically it is already in the wrong place.

Read your comments about sparks sliding into the hole. You should know better by now, any conical form to the liner should be on the INSIDE of the barrel.

Keep us up to date.

[ 07-16-2003, 00:01: Message edited by: Hobie ]

Hobie, ole buddy, ole pal. Just for the record I don't know diddly squat about flintlock shooting! What I have gleaned out of the considerate individuals here on AR is about the summation of my total knowledge on black powder shooting, save the booklets provided by Knight manufacturing, Lyman pamphlet with the rifle I just bought, and reloading books I have on hand. About the touch hole and what I SHOULD know by now? I certainly hope that my question didn't sound like an 18 year old, wide-eyed, dumb, private in the military. That I ask questions with obvious answers to some, are to me ones I don't understand, period. I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer so Hobie cut me a little slack. Notice the play on words. Talk to you all later. I'm going out to click, phoof, and maybe BANG!

The results from the 1st shooting session were: (1) This is fun. (2) This is REALLY FUN! (3) This is REALLY, REALLY FUN!! (4) Oh, no! The famous "Dead in the Pan" senerio. (5) Oh, I forgot to clean the touchhole, right. (6) thru (14) More FUN! (15) "Dead in the Pan" again with little spark-time to change the flint. (16) After changing the flint and getting it set right ( a little trouble here) we were off and running again. Within about 20 shots I was putting them in the bullseye at 50 yards. Had to do some drifting of the rear sight and a little filing of the front to get her there. Next session with this barrel I'll be moving the target out to 75 yards and see if I can tweak it in more and possibly move to 100 yards for the group shooting. I'm going to be doing the same with the 1 in 60 twist barrel I changed to but leave the barrel on for hunting. Thanks all for the help and will keep you posted. Mike

FT; Now that you got that figured out try these targets just for fun. Cutting a string or driving a thumb tack at 25,Cutting a playing card edgewise( has to be a complete cut off or it don't count) or splitting a ball on a double bited axe head imbeded in a large tree, and breaking two clay pigeons at the same time,one on each side of the axe head. Have more fun, derf

Derf, sounds fun on the playing cards and axe. For now, I'm going to try and cut a deer come rifle season since I've missed the muzzle loader season here in sunny Kansas. Went to the local Gun Show at the Collesium yesterday and ran into a guy from here in Wichita who shoots black powder. He had a leather "thing-a-ma-gig" not to be confused with a "watch-a-ma-callit" , on the frizzen of his display black powder rifle. I had no idea what it was so I asked. He stated it was a frizzen cover and the old timers used them as a safety. I thought, not a bad idea at all. There was also a cut piece of deer antler 3/16th inch thick with a hole in it dangling from the same piece of lanyard. It was placed around the screw that holds the lock plate on. He said it kept him from slipping off the screw with his screwdriver and marring the stock. And one more little gadget added to the pack. Now I know why the frontiers man brought along a pack mule when exploring the West. Finished mine up this morning. Safety First! Later, Mike

I was looking at your post, If you would like to see or get a real copy of the Hawken Rifle go to their site. www.thehawkenshop.com

SFC Auton, Called the Hawkin Shop from the getgo and was lead in the direction of the Lyman Great Plain Hunter to see if I would really like muzzleloading. They said it would be the best rifle to start with and if I wanted to spend more money later on a real Hawkin the change over from one gun to the other would be simple as they were similiar. And do I ever like black powder shootin' and everything else that goes with it! Most fun I've had since I started shooting. Now, when I get rich and famous I'd like to talk to the Hawkin Shop again. Well, rich anyway. Tomorrow morning I'll be taking ole Thunder Cloud out deer hunting and with any luck I might come home with meat. I'll keep ya posted. Later, Mike