Wow I got drawn for antlerless elk in the primitive season here!!!

My question, I have a 50 cal underhammer and I'm wondering if I'd be undergunned using PRB for the elk. My other consideration is what would be the maximum range I should consider.

thanks

The chef

Yes. Your ball is too small.

I'm sure that lots of elk have been killed with .50 round balls. However, much better projectiles are available, so, provided the primative weapons regulations allow it, why not use a much more effective 300 to 350 grain projectile at 1500-1800 fps?

Like Stonecreek said a conical would be better if your underhammer has the correct twist for it. I forget who makes it but the slightly elongated "ballette" is intended to stabilize in a longer twist while providing a little more inertia. If you have no choice but the roundball then sneak within 50 yards (25 would be better), strive keep the .490 180 gr pill off the shoulder bones, and endeavor for a broadside double lung hit. Good hunting!

80 to 90 grains of 3f blackpowder and a 50 caliber patched round ball is enough for elk. I would keep my distance at 100 yards or less.

Hit him in the heart or lungs, and he will go less than 100 yards.

Sorry guys I should have mentioned-the twist is 1:60, so it's definately a roundball gun. I dunno I'm pretty weird but i'd sure like to do it with a roundball-seems more manly!! On the other hand I don't want to make a bad mistake either.

thanks for the replies

I do not know where you are going to prove your manhood against an elk but here in Idaho you will be looked down on as a putz if you use a round ball 50. If you have to, you have to. I would recommend shooting one out from under a feeder in texas if you want to try this trick.

Yes it is true that it has been done and can be done. BUT the question is should it be done?

Sg I suppose "more manly" was a poor choice of words. I've pretty much hung up my rifles and now I hunt with a longbow. It makes me work harder to get my animals and it makes me pretty damned proud when I do it too. That's what I meant to convey and it's why I want to use a traditional muzzleloader instead of an inline. By the way you'll never see me shooting anything on a feeder or directly on a waterhole. I'm a good enough hunter not to have to hunt like that.

Anyway, I've not hunted with the smokepole yet and don't know beans about the killing power of it, that's why I asked the question. I dare say if I can get close enough with a bow I can get within 40 yards for the muzzleloader.

So to rephrase the question using a 50 Caliber PRB what is the farthest that I should consider as being an ethical shot.

Another question, does cold weather have any affect on muzzleloaders?

thanks again

The chef

You sound like a good man.

I would not shoot a bull. I would shoot a cow broadside 90 degrees with her front leg extended so you move those big bones out of the way. Hit her 1/3 the way up (top of the heart). 100 grains of powder in an accurate load. Black or Pyrodex select are my choices in a muzzleloader. I would consider bow range only. Not over 50 yards. Be ready for a relatively blood free tracking job with that 1 little hole. Hope for snow. Let her be for a solid 30 minutes and hope she don't go far.

Cold within reason has minimal effect. Confirm right before your hunt.

Moisture is a issue. Keep the snow/moisture out of the action and Tape your muzzle (wide electrical tape). If you hunt in the cold keep your rifle cold until the hunt is over. Leave it out the night before. Load it cold and keep it cold. Once cold loaded it does not go in the house, cabin, camper, or cab. Otherwise moisture will condense inside and it will not fire or worse will hangfire.

I think this is a mistake and I think the elk is to majestic an animal for this treatment...But I learn best the hard way also. Good Luck to you.

I will be hunting elk with my 54 again this year shooting 120 gr of Pyro select and a 460 grain bullet. This is what I use every year here in Idaho.

SG thanks for the info, some great advise for cold weather. I'm going to give some serious thought to getting something bigger-a good reason for a new gun or at least a new barrel!!

thanks again

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
I'm going to give some serious thought to getting something bigger-a good reason for a new gun...

If you want to stay traditional have a look at the French fusils and trade guns As others have said with any roundball gun you're still going to want to get close. Good hunting!

Calgary, I can tell you that my son and I have taken 9 cow elk now with nothing more than a .495 round ball and 85-90 grains of 2f and never had one go more than 35-40 yards. That one was the smallest of the bunch and even cleared a fence to get that far. We have some nice size cow elk here in AZ. believe it or not.

How about using a hard cast round ball at close range. The hard cast should get more penetration with less expansion and how big a hole do you have to make. I have done it on deer but there are no elk where I hunt.

quote:

and endeavor for a broadside double lung hit. Good hunting!

This is the key! Broadside shots only, and avoid the shoulder joint bones......

only this to consider,

when and if you use tape over the muzzle, shoot it this way to see how your rifle shoots when taped. what ever and however you plan to hunt,,,replicate it at the range and make sure your rifle still shoots where you want it.

if you can shoot into 3 inch or under at anything under 75 yrds you should be rite there. the 50 has taken many moose and not just a few grizzly's up here with mostly good success. however i will join the loudest here and agree that a mini or such would agree better by far for any animal with the will to get away like elk. id still keep yardage to under 75 and make sure the rifle likes your load EVERY TIME!!

have a great hunt and i would like to see pictures of your outcome

I wonder how elk were killed before conical bullets ?

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:
I wonder how elk were killed before conical bullets?

Yep, we do well to remember that the Lewis and Clark expedition ate elk more or less daily from St Louis to the Pacific and back using nothing but flintlock .54 caliber round ball rifles.

Actually, some of the biggest elk in Idaho were killed (cleanly) with .50 caliber roundballs back in the true primitive hunting seasons. Some of us old fossils even used flintlocks, and today we all know that it takes a scoped in-line with sabots and bullets at least the weight of one for a 505 Gibbs. Of course, that was back in the 1970 to 2000 era when the elk were a lot less sophisticated. Stalking used to be the name of the game, not seeing how far off you could hit one. Get within 100 yards and just shoot the bitch!

Every try and figure out why everything is so much harder and more complicated these 21st century days?


Rich

quote:

Every try and figure out why everything is so much harder and more complicated these 21st century days?


Rich

Posts: 7210 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005 Reply With Quote

Because we make it that way.

right, sort of! Complicating things makes it easier for the fedguv to create another bureaucracy to deal with it and pass out money.

Rich

If you have no problem getting to 60 yards,I would use a round ball with confidence.
Round balls kill very well at short range. They lose velocity very quickly,however.

Use your .50 cal and patched round balls with confidence.

Elk have not evolved armor plating and a lead ball isn't going to bounce off its side!

A good shot through the vitals will bring one down just fine.

I would try to keep the shots within 75 yards, but if you do your job right, the ball will do the same.

My son and I went to Quebec on a caribou hunt and he took a nice bull with his .50 cal and a patched round ball. He shot his from a rest at 126 yards. It walked/lurched about fifty yards, got all loose and wobbly and tipped over.

But we did do a lot of shooting that summer getting ready for the hunt. We also figured out what was the maximum powder charge that worked well in his gun. It's been a couple years now, but if I remember correctly, he was shooting 105 grains of Pyrodex.

I know 50 flinters and patched roundballs put the knock down on Pa deer with in reasonable shooting distances and good shot placement. I have seen folks loose deer with 300 mags with lousy shot placement.

Gather some 1 gallon milk/water plastic Jugs , Fill with water and freeze them now set them at 50/75/100 YDS and see the damage your rifle does with the max load you are going to use ! all your questions will be answered by the damage to the frozen milk/water plastic jugs!

I've only shot two critters with a .490 PRB and 90 grains 2F; a Wyoming whitetail buck at ~60 yards and an Ontario black bear that weighed ~275 pounds at 50 yards. Both shots were broadside and high heart/double lung. In both instances the ball whistled right through them and they went about 50-60 yards and gave it up.

I can't imagine that an elk has more depth or substance through the lower broadside chest than a mature black bear.

You do your part (get within 75 yards and place the shot properly) and it will be a very dead elk. Like somebody previously said, people can screw up using some super-duper magnum.

appearently, a good shot with a bow doesn't stand a chance! what do they have 60-70 ftlb's of energy?? i know fer shur that they done been shot and kilt at 60-70 yards...allot.

Test your gun , shoot the ice jugs and see the performance it gives !

I've dug a few old roundballs out of elk we've killed (broadheads too!) over the years, so I'd keep my range reasonable and only shoot him BEHIND the shoulder and into the lungs. 75 yards would be about my max with a 50 roundball, and I don't know if I'd shoot more than 100 yards with my .54 hawken.

Well here's the rest of the story. I used the 12 guage instead of my muzzleloader as I felt much more confident with having a back up shot. I eventually did get a great big cow elk and the 12 guage worked well at about 10-100 yards.

Thanks for the information everyone.

aaahhh come on shoot the ice jugs so we can hear your comments !

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
Sorry guys I should have mentioned-the twist is 1:60, so it's definately a roundball gun. I dunno I'm pretty weird but i'd sure like to do it with a roundball-seems more manly!! On the other hand I don't want to make a bad mistake either.

thanks for the replies

I have a 1:60 rifled 54 cal. "Great Plains Hunter" and have been told repeatedly by seasoned BP elk hunters that round ball is insufficient, and 1:60 won't stabilize a conical.

The standard rule is 2,000 ft lbs energy for elk. I don't have the calculator handy (They're online.), but a 50 cal. ball in BP is not going to approach 2,000 ft lbs.

Wounding or crippling an animal is seriously bad form.

12 gauge with sabots/slugs would work. Does that qualify for a "primitive hunt."

In my books a shotgun isn't a primitive weapon. This draw was bow, shotgun or muzzleloader-because it's in a well populated area. The 12 guage with bead sight is a lot closer range gun than a properly set up and scoped inline.

I like the idea about the milk jugs though and I should get out and try some of that stuff-sounds fun.

the chef

My hunting partner killed his 5X4 bull in Colorado with a Thompson Center Hawken in .50 cal. with 80gr. of goex 2F and a patched round ball. the distance was 65 yards with a double lung shot. The bull went 2 steps and fell over on a small tree. That was when we realized that we needed more rope.

quote:

Originally posted by 0X0:

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
Sorry guys I should have mentioned-the twist is 1:60, so it's definately a roundball gun. I dunno I'm pretty weird but i'd sure like to do it with a roundball-seems more manly!! On the other hand I don't want to make a bad mistake either.

thanks for the replies

I have a 1:60 rifled 54 cal. "Great Plains Hunter" and have been told repeatedly by seasoned BP elk hunters that round ball is insufficient, and 1:60 won't stabilize a conical.

The standard rule is 2,000 ft lbs energy for elk. I don't have the calculator handy (They're online.), but a 50 cal. ball in BP is not going to approach 2,000 ft lbs.

Wounding or crippling an animal is seriously bad form.

12 gauge with sabots/slugs would work. Does that qualify for a "primitive hunt."

OXO, I think you'd better tell your buddies to check their sources. 1:6O twist is for patched round balls.

I wonder what the Mountain Men would have said when you told them that their rifles wouldn't kill an elk. I think a properly placed round ball through the vitals, from a reasonable distance will kill any elk on the face of the planet.

Elk have NOT developed armored hide and don't need 2,000 lb/ft of energy to kill.

quote:

OXO, I think you'd better tell your buddies to check their sources. 1:6O twist is for patched round balls.

That's what I said: "round ball is insufficient, and 1:60 won't stabilize a conical."

I use a 50 cal. (1 in 60") Hawken. My elk load is 90 gr. of 2F under a T/C Maxi-ball. These weigh 320 grs. and are pre-lubed. Accuracy is quite good. We also use electricians tape over the muzzle. Also, we use cap covers over the nipple. It is easy to tell if your barrel is sealed because the tape over the muzzle will suck in or bulge out slightly depending on temp. and elevation. If the tape remains flat it's not sealed and needs to be pulled and reloaded with fresh components. We actually load while inside and then seal the barrel. The thinking being that everything is dry. Another key is to use RWS caps. It's worked for 10 seasons.

Rule of thumb on loads is 1.5 X barrel diameter:

50 cal X 1.5 = 75 gr. powder charge. This is not hard/fast, but "rule of thumb."

Heavier bullet would afford more back pressure and allow for better ignition of a larger charge.

Everyone tells me 1:60 won't stabilize a conical. Doesn't mean the gun won't shoot a conical, and one man's "accuracy is quite good" can be another's "flyer."

For those that are not familiar with the T/C Maxi-balls, they are a conical bullet that is designed to shoot in round-ball twist barrels.
My patched round ball load is 100 grs. of 2F. This load was derived by starting at 50 grs. of black and increasing it in 5 gr. increments until I got accurate grouping. I would never recommend that someone use my or anyone else's load without working up to it. Each rifle is different. What is safe in one may not be in another. Chech with who ever built your rifle or the barrel maker. I also tested with different ball sizes and different patch thicknesses. I also checked with a couple of buddies who are top flight muzzle loader builders before I went that high. If ever in doubt, don't do it.
Another "rule of thumb" that I was reluctant about breaking was putting tape over the end of the barrel. I saw this as a "barrel obstruction".
A huge no no! I first saw this while hunting in Alaska. My guide had the barrel of his .458 back-up rifle taped.

Putting a wrap of electricians tape over the muzzle of your rifle does not present a barrel obstruction. The air pressure ahead of the bullet blows the tape off before the bullet exits the barrel. I would consider that your Alaska guide knew what he was doing.

Every conical I shot out of my 54 Great plains 1-60 hit the deertarget at 80 yds...SOME hit closer to the 3" paster I had positioned in the "shoulder pocker" and some made smaller groups...BUT...ALL the shots would have killed that animal at that distance had it been real.

As always people are all the time repeating things they hear without thinking about all the parameter or testing different loads...OR...actuall testing in THEIR rifles.

What you have to do is pick out a powder load and bullet you might want to use, shoot a few to get a velocity or consult the Lyman BP manual to find the velocity...MEASURE the length of the CONICAL and use that data in a twist program to see if it MIGHT stabilize adequately and THEN work out a load...increasing or decreasing the amount of BP, going to a different brand or grain to see if that particular conical will ACTUALLY work for YOUR accuracy level and intended purpose.

It ain't no different than working up an accurate load for a rifle or pistol. As Tommyhawk said...EACH rifle is different...what works in mine probably won't work in yours to the same extent.

Getting a smokepole to shoot well might be a bit more difficult than a cartridge weapon, but all you have to do is take time to learn the craft, just like anything else.

I have a T/C 50 cal AND a Lyman 54 Cal. The T/C is a fast twist and DOES shoot several types and brands of conicals much more accurate than balls, but it depends on the COMPLETE load parameters NOT just one part. Someone in the family or good friends have used this T/C to take at least one buck every year for the past 20 some odd years...with SEVERL different favorite loads, including balls and conicals.

The Lyman shoots three round balls into one nice triangle at 80 yds with 80 gr FFG poured from a flask using a home made 80 gr by volume measure, Hornady 0.530" ball, 0.015" Wonderlubed patch...this is the only hunting load I shoot now...This is MY rifle, NO ONE messes with it. I have taken 2 elk with it...one at about 125 yds and one at about 80 yds. The ball went through both shoulder scapulas on the 80 yrd one and kept on going, not to mention the deer and varmints.

Oh...and not to stir the pot too much more, but I and a few other close friends have taken quite a few elk with 22 LR's with a round in the eye or ear depending on the angle and from 2 to about 50 yds...all for humane reasons due to being hit by vehicles or starving to death from broken jaws, yucca spines in their mouths, dog/coyote attacks, lousy shooting hunters, etc.

I always wonder when people are in the midst of whisky, talk if they really believe what they are saying?...Not intended as a flame or diss...I wonder the same thing when the stories are flying fast and furious around a camp fire or Monday Night Football.

Luck