Muzzle loader permit. I have an old TC Renegade, shoots OK... but it takes 5 years to draw for an Arizona Bull elk tag... so looking at the savage 10ML II and Henry Ball ltd, and ultimate rifle BP express, and Knight and White,,,,,



Any offers or opinions accepted gratefully.



Jameister

T/C Omega 50 .. The #1 consumer-satisfied ML for the last two years... beyond 200 yards use a centerfire.

First question..

What will the state of Arizona allow you to use during the elk hunt?



Open sights/scopes? #11 caps/209 primers? Conical bullets/sabots? Pellets/loose powder?





Knowing the legalities may narrow your choices.

If legal, the Henry Ball Ltd. is a real gem. I got mine about two months ago and I don't think you can beat it. If you don't already own one, and ordered one today, you probably wouldn't get it in time to use this year. Good luck on your hunt.

I would suggest a T/C Encore. Have one, know two others with them. The three have accounted for 4 NM bulls in 5 trips with no complaints. Nice to have interchangeable barrels in case you won't use the ML again.

That said, I really like the looks and feel of the Austin & Halleck (sp?)

I just checked the Arizona game laws...A muzzleloading rifle is described as:

"a firearm intended to be fired from the shoulder, incapable of firing fixed ammunition, having a single barrel and single chamber, and loaded thru the muzzle with blackpowder or synthetic blackpowder and a single projectile."

So..the Savage ML-II using smokeless powder would NOT be a legal weapon. The Savage is not the best at using blackpower/blackpowder substitutes either. I'd mark the Savage out for this hunt.

I'd recommend either a T/C Omega .50 or a Knight Disc Elite .50 for your hunt. These are the two most accurate .50 muzzleloaders I've ever owned. They are also two of the most trouble-free each with a great track record of accuracy and dependability. Both also have 26 inch barrels or longer giving you maximum velocity.

Load either up with 300gr Shockwave/SST and the largest/most accurate powder charge and you'll be ready. For simplicity, I'd try 3-pellet loads of Triple Se7en first.

Hi big6x6,
Thanks for sharing that information. Alway's good to know the law's first.

If you are going to use a modern rifle, then why not just use a cartridge gun?

"If you are going to use a modern rifle, then why not just use a cartridge gun?"

Well..That's what the law allows. Sounds like it is a "muzzleloader specific" hunt, and the law allows the use of "modern" muzzleloading rifles. I'd certainly use one.

This indeed a muzzle loader only hunt. And I was surprised to see only single barrel ML as well. I am wanting to make sure I dont lose my 5 year opportunity on a wet nipple or under-engineered rifle... dont care if I miss out on an overcounter every year hunt... but it is in fact the five preference points that won this hunt finally. I am leaning to a TC Omega 50 or a Knight Extreme disc.

Tossed the idea of Savage/Henry Ball cause the delivery is best case two weeks before hunt, and the rules here are black powder or synthetic BP only.

Any further help is appreciated.... what is best web site for the cleaning, shooting, ins and outs of ML?

Thanks to all.

J

Firstly - I have a question/comment about the AZ regulation - Isn't all "Black Powder" synthetic ( synthetic - not of natural origin; prepared or made artificially )? I have yet to come across any natural deposits of Black Powder!

Second - I can only tell you what I did many years ago when I was afforded the opportunity to hunt a Monster Muley buck on a private ranch in Colorado for 1 day within the Muzzleloading season. Since this was the finest buck I had ever seen - I chose to hunt it with an original (Ca. late 1830's) Dimick rifle I own. This old gun only shoots about 6" groups @100 yds., but I felt this "grand old buck" deserved to be hunted with a "grand old rifle."

Keeping in contact with locals assured me the best chance at knowing what his latest location would be. After a careful (@ 1 mile) stalk to a group of deer spotted earlier, I could see a huge body, but not the head. After a wait of another 15 minutes or so, he came into full view at about 50 yards. Much to my disappointment, this deer was not the one I was after. I left and went back to the ranch house and thanked the rancher for the opportunity, At that time, he told me he had not seen that buck for a couple of days, and had no idea where he might be, but he had been where I was hunting the last time he saw him. He suggested I come back that evening. I declined, thanked him again for the offer, and told him that "Grandfather" did not mean for me to take that buck, and that the memory of his grandeur was "gift" enough for me.

Take this fond memory of mine for what you will, and make your own decisions.

Great story Oldguy.

Some of my favorite hunting memories ended the same: saw and chose not to shoot... some of the less favorite ended with shot and missed.

I intend this next one to end with either chose not to shoot, or pass the roast please.

For several years I hunted with classic overunder double rifles, missed a chance at a 6X6 due to fogging of old period scope on a prewar merkel DR. This time it'll be a muzzle loader, but no further handicap is required.

I just bought an OMEGA 50 cal.

Thanks for all the comments.

"I just bought an OMEGA 50 cal."

GREAT! There just isn't a better choice. What rings/bases do you have? If you have not gotten any yet, I really like the Thompson Center/Warne Maxima one-piece base with the Maxima QD rings. I don't think there is a better way to go on the Omega.

Projectiles that shoot good in my Omega are the 295gr Powerbelt, 250gr & 300gr PTX, 200gr, 250gr & 300gr SST/Shockwave, and 250gr Barnes Expander. The best 3-shot group this rifle has fired was .45 inch using a 300gr SST and 100gr ffg 777. If I were going elk hunting tomorrow I would pick either the 300gr PTX or SST/Shockwave.

Some helpful hints you may all ready know..
1. Buy a range rod. One of the best accessories you can own. Knight has a really good one. That way you can keep your loading jag on the Omega ram rod and a cleaning jag on the range rod.
2. Swab with a spit-patch between shots. Simple..After shooting pit on or lick a clean patch. Swab the bore a few times using the range rod and then turn the patch over. Up and down a couple more times and your done.
3. Buy a Past slip on recoil shield. Fits on your arm/shoulder. 100-150gr 777 and 300gr projectiles KICK!
4. If planning on leaving the rear iron sight on, a Leupold 2.5-8 Vari-X III/VX-III is about the longest scope you can use. Something to consider.
5. Use Anti-sieze on the rifles breech plug threads as well as on the actual breech plug threads.

That's just some things I thought of off the top of my head. I'm sure some others will have some good tips as well.

Here's a pic of my Omega. You can see the bases/ring set-up I use.

"This line about wanting a more dependable rifle is just an
excuse. A traditional ML rifle is as dependable as the user."

Your opinion is interesting.. where do we draw the line: real black powder? rifled or musket? maxi ball or round ball? flintlock or modern percussion cap? kind of reminds me of the fine folks in Colorado that proudly post "Native" on their car bumpers.. I ask them: how nice, which american indian tribe are you from?.... and I ask you: Where is this traditional line to be drawn? actual original period rifle, or reproduction? Does the flint need to be hand quarried?

In my experience, most people draw these lines just behind themselves.

My question was about hunting concepts of dependability and accuracy and technology.

I share the concept of a modern rifle hunt being different than a modern muzzleloader hunt. I believe the single shot and front loading as well as ballistics bear out that difference as pretty fundamental based on bullet velocity.

I am not interested in hunting while wearing skins and bear grease, my goal is a clean one shot kill, whether it rains or snows steady for my six day hunt or not, and I thank those that have helped me select a tool to that end.

"The inliners have no sense of esthetics, no class really. Just pigs."

"Typical slob, just the market for Tony Knight and other manufacturers of inline rifles"

Simply AMAZING that you can say such comments simply because of what one enjoys shooting.

You know nothing about any of us. Your comments speak VOLUMES about yourself.

Aah, all those opinions. In the end, you're the one that has to sleep with your decision. If you have no personal ethical problem with an in-line, use one. If you have to be "traditional", use a 150 year old rifle, leave your binos and range finder at home, and get a horse and leave your truck at home too. Oh yeah, some time before season you need to kill a deer, tan his hide, and make some buckskins so you can really fit the bill. No Gore-Tex and rubber soled boots for you. No scent-lock fabric, GPSs, or other new-fangled crap either. Just you and the elk. Hell, why not use a spear? How can someone use a flintlock rifle, a $1000 Swaro bino, a rangefinder, a GPS, and all those fancy clothes after driving to the area in a 2000-something $40,000 truck and still call it a traditional hunt?

I say get the Omega, practice a bunch to be proficient, know your limitations, stick to them, and have a good hunt. Me, I shot my first ML elk with a T/C black diamond at 70 yards. My second was shot with my T/C Encore at about that same range. Just 'cuz you shoot a modern in-line doesn't make you slob hunter taking a poke at an elk at 250 yards. Man, do what makes you happy. As long as it's legal and meets your ethical standards, who really cares what anyone else thinks or opines from behind their keyboard.

The inline rifles are made for the people that use loopholes in game laws to bring modern rifles into a hunting season set aside for primitive firearms.



You slobs! Get out of my hunting season. Take your inline rifles to the modern rifle season where they belong!

No chance bud...I'm here to stay.

BTW..I hunt with my inlines AND my SIDELOCK(oh, oh) all year long, ml season or not. That is when I'm not hunting with a bow. I have not shot a game animal with a CF rifle in years! I even squirrel/rabbit/crow hunt with an air rifle!