Just trying to find out what load weight you use if you go to loose Pyrodex vs the pellets?
Right now shoot 250 gr Hornady LnL sabots, with 2 @ 50gr pellets......

Is there loose Triple 7 BTW???

I'll go to a few powder sites and see what I can find I guess......

this is what black powder has come to, someone asking how much loose powder it takes to equal one 50gr pellet...?

I'm sorry, a 50 grain pellet is 50 grains of powder. Yes they make 777 in loose form, 7,000 grains in a pound.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

I rally don't mean to criticize you...

expect more velocity,recoil,etc,from loose powder

150 Grs of loose T7 would be an overload in most guns

Somewhere I was reading that 100 gr of loose REAL blackpowder was only like 80 gr of loose 777.

Go to the Pryodex (Hodgdon) site and check whether pellets are VOLUME equivalent despite being compressed. I only shoot black powder and have no pyrodex experience but I am sure pyrodex was initially marketed as the equivalent, Volume for Volume, of equivalent granulations of black powder. I laugh my *ss off at inline shooters at my local range working in huge pyrodex pellet increments trying to get some decent results to hunt with. I usually ask if they do their 30-06 in 5 grain increments of IMR. Thanks for posting, I've been waiting for this one. N.S.

The differing intel in these replies is what led me to post. I had not done my homework on the Powder web sites yet when I posted, but figured I'd get some interesting feedback here.

In fact, I have been told both--that 50 gr pellet of Pyrodex is equal to 50 gr of loose, and also that it is NOT the same--as you can see in the replies here....

N.S. I think your point is exactly why I want to experiment with some loose powder, but 100 gr. of Pyrodex in pellet form(2 pellets @ 50 gr)
is giving good accuracy, and is listed as a charge in the manuals that came with mine and my buddies ML's. I figured I would start around 100 grains of loose Pyrodex and work up--was figuring 2 gr increments--is that to wide a spread for working up loads--I usually go 1/2 gr on centerfire stuff.....

Always interesting what you get back--box of chocolates so to speak.

Here's one warning I found...

reduce the Triple 7 load by 15% or so over the others

Thanks Buglemine, the more intel the better. I think I might start lower than I thought to work up.

100 grains = 100 grains, as long as you are measuring by volume. I use 90 grains of 3F Triple 7 in my Knight. 120 grains is the max load of loose powder in most inlines if you read the fine print that came with your gun. Accuracy is almost always better with loose powder over pellets.

Although I shoot T7 pellets out of my T/C Omega right now, I think I am going to switch it over to the loose T7, and then my Lyman .58 cal is going to be on a diet consisting of loose Goex

most manuals I have seen that recommend 150 gr pellets only say 120 gr loose.blackpowder or pyro.

Nope, afraid a 50 grain pellet is NOT 50 grains of powder.

Pellets are good for making Hodgdon rich - which isn't all bad, but they've sure created a world of confusion and (combined with misinformation) maybe also a hazard.

Let's see here...

Start with loose powder. 100 grains by VOLUME each of ffg black, Pyrodex, and Triple7.

The Pyrodex load will produce an approximately equal load result when compared to true black and the Triple7 should produce a roughly 15% more energetic load compared to either of the others.

So that's loose powder - notice nobody ever says WHICH black powder but I'll have to assume "they" didn't mean Swiss.

Pellets -

A Pyrodex 50 gain pellet is supposed to be the energy equivalent of 50 grains by VOLUME of loose black powder (or loose Pyrodex). A 50 grain rated pellet does not WEIGH 50 grains - it is closer to 37 grains by actual weight.

A Triple7 50 grain pellet is NOW supposed to be the equivalent of a 50 grain Pyrodex pellet. Its actual WEIGHT is neither 50 grains nor 37 grains - it's more like 30 grains (don't hold me to that one precisely).

We might be now be ready to talk about actual weights of the same loose powders as compared to their volumetric measures. Again the same 100 grains volumetric of each would produce ACTUAL weights of ~100 grains for the true black, ~75 grains for the Pyrodex, and ~78 grains for the Triple7.

There is plenty more to this nonsense including the new "magnum" pellets (and I don't care what that means for my own sake - I will never buy and have never bought pellets.)

Underclocked, this is more what I was looking for. Other than the powder sites, is there a good manual or book to help me get dialed in on loose powder loading?
By the way, where do I learn and read up on 'Swiss' powder--or what is the scoop on it?

Thanks--Don

There was a recent article in the American Hunter magazine (I believe that is correct) that dealt with comparisons of the various powders. You might try to locate a copy - I believe it was in last month's issue.

I know of NO comprehensive site that specializes in explaining and comparing powders. Your best bet would probably be to visit this and other forums for detail - but much of it will be WRONG. And I'm certainly not above a mistake or 40 myself.

I suppose my advice so far as loose powder loading would be as follows: First of all read and heed the most conservative guideline offered by either the gunmaker or the powder maker (they often conflict and sometimes dramatically). Learn the difference between powder granule sizes in terms of application and comparative energy.

Learn the comparative energy of the powders (the NRA magazine article would be invaluable, though I understand there are a couple of errors in the data for whatever reason.)

Get a good volumetric measure that at least goes up to the volume you have decided upon as maximum. The TC U-View measure is a good one and I believe it goes up to 125 grains. There is a cheaper, perhaps identical model sold under some generic brand name at some Wal-Mart stores.

Once you have determined a maximum load for a given powder, do not start there. I like to start load development at about 70 grains and work up charges slowly firing a group at each volume setting. The U-View has marks in 5 grain increments. You will very likely find that a given rifle/load combo will reach some peak accuracy as load is increased, then start to decrease. The peak for that combo would be your optimal load.

At that point, you could (not necessary for hunting loads at normal muzzleloader ranges or casual shooting) measure your chosen volume of THAT PARTICULAR POWDER and weigh it. Weighing your charges and containing them separately can provide accuracy advantages as well as a convenient method of carrying extra charges while hunting. 5 to 7ml capped vials are the usual container.

Powder densities can vary from lot to lot and with moisture content of the powder. So treat each new container as a different beast and check your charge WEIGHT against a newly measured volume.

Had you rather carry a flask, there is quite a variety to choose from ranging from the traditional horn to calibrated flask/measure combos.

To obtain the best accuracy with loose, it is best to obtain your individual charges as consistently as humanly possible. The same would be true for seating pressure - use the same amount of pressure as best you can gauge and seat the projectile to the same depth on the ramrod (make a witness mark for reference).

One last thought, more an opinion than fact, is that irrespective of the powder chosen (Pyrodex, Triple7, Jim Shockey Gold, APP, Goex, Kik, Swiss, Elephant, etc) if you are shooting a .50 caliber or less - there is rarely if ever any good reason to go beyond 120 grains by volume and sometimes there is very good reason to use considerably less.

I know all this isn't quite what you were asking but some of it may be useful - and if I've botched up anything, hopefully others will join in and correct me.

I 'borrowed' the below image from another shooter who borrowed it from someone else...



I believe it to be a part of the data presented in the magazine article mentioned.

Best to join the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association and get your advice from competitive or hunting recordbook muzzleloaders of all types.It's been around since the 30s. It's probably very hard to do better on a forum nowadays if you are starting from the beginning and have no way to evaluate what you are told or the true expertise of the teller. If you were well experienced you would have a better chance of avoiding the pure *.S. of people telling you what they don't know . Of course acting on BS is easy, it's the checking and researching and understanding authoritative data whether derrived from others or self testing or the long studious experience of your own experience that's hard. ned

Underclocked and NS, thank you very much. That is some good intel, i.e. I didn't even know of the National ML Rifle Association, so I'll definitely check into that.

I appreciate the help guys.

The article mentioned was actually in the October issue of the "American Rifleman" magazine.

There is some further discussion and more info
posted HERE.

All I can say is, FORGET WEIGHT! If you are using loose powder, and measuring by volume as you should be, a 50-grain volume measure of loose pyrodex RS will be equal, velocity and pressure wise, to a 50-grain pellet. However, their respective weights might be entirely different. For example, if you measure out 100 grains of real black powder of FFg granulation with a volume measure, the velocity and pressure you'd get from AN EQUAL VOLUME OF PYRODEX RS would be very close to the same as produced by that charge of real BP. However, the Pyrodex will only weigh between 70% to 80% as much as the black powder charge. Now, I have no idea how T7 compares to black, as far as weight is concerned. BUT,if you are using a 100-grain charge by volume of FFg black powder or Pyrodex RS, you should use approximately 20% LESS by volume of T7 to get the same pressure & velocity. If you were to use the same volume of T7 as the other two, your pressures will be much higher. Whether this would be dangerous or not, depends on how hot your Pyrodex load was to start with, and of course, the strength of your gun!

Has anyone ever put pellets vs. loose on a scale to check them out?

fish you still trying to work up a load for the mz? it's pretty simple to make the switch from pellets to loose powder. the pellets are done by volume, as stated above. just get you a powder measure and some pyrodex or 777 (i like 777), i don't know what kind of mz you have or what kind of bullets you shoot, but i'll relate to you what i did in my t/c omega.
since it can handle a 'magnum' charge, i started with 80 or 90 grans of loose powder and a 250gr shockwave bullet. shot a group. fairly thorough range cleaning. (wet and dry patch after every shot also). then bumped it up 10 grains at a time for each group until i got to 120gr. i got the best group at 110gr, so thats what i hunt with. hope this helps.

thanks cooper, I'm still working here and there, I have a load with 3 pellets, recommended by TC that is very accurate. I just purchased a Savage ML that I am just getting going with.

Thanks for your help--Don

quote:

this is what black powder has come to, someone asking how much loose powder it takes to equal one 50gr pellet...?

I'm sorry, a 50 grain pellet is 50 grains of powder. Yes they make 777 in loose form, 7,000 grains in a pound.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

I rally don't mean to criticize you...

With Pyrodex, 50 grain pellets = 50 grains by volume of loose Pyrodex but not so with T7. A 50 grain T7 pellet is actually about 42 grains by volume. It has to do with the fact that pellets burn more efficiently than loose powder.

quote:

expect more velocity,recoil,etc,from loose powder

Not with Pyrodex RS....pellets burn more efficiently by design than loose powder and therefore produce more velocity for the same amount of volume.

T7 is pretty equal from pellet to loose but as the pellets are not a true 50 grains by volume they are more efficient as well.

I've yet to see any 150 grain load produce more velocity than the plain old Pyrodex pellets.