My wife and I are going to take a long weekend and head over to Gettysburg to do some investigating. I will be looking for information on these two guns while we are there. I will be looking to see if they are in original condition. What there values are and any other added information I can find. I thought you guys might like to see them. If you are familar with them please let me hear what you know.

The first one is a smooth bore rifle. As you can see I edited the photos to show the information visible on the rifle.





The second one is a kentucky long rifle. The name Josh Golcher is clearly visible on the lock. From what I have been able to find out. Josh Golcher was known for making locks for these types of rifles but also made rifles too. My guess is that the brass around the stock just above the triggers is there to repair a cracked stock. This is only a guess though.





[ 03-16-2003, 10:31: Message edited by: Fisher ]

Have you looked in Flayderman's?

That's my first step.

The first seems std. US Military - - .58 cal?

The second appears to be a sporting gun.

Randy, thanks for the heads up on Flayderman's. I know very little about original muzzleloaders. I do like the challenge of researching them to find out the history behind them. Even though most of the topics here are about modern ML�s. I thought it would be interesting to post about some of the originals that are still out there.

"Flayderman's Guide To Antique American Firearms . . . and their values" by Norm Flayderman really is a good resource.

The first rifle appears to be a Model 1861 U.S. Percussion Rifle-Musket. E. Robinson was NY production 1863-65. Toal production: 30,000.

Flayderman #9A-328, values ranging from $750 ("good") to $2250 ("fine").

The second gun I have no clue about.

[ 03-17-2003, 10:01: Message edited by: RandyWakeman ]

I have seen a few of the top ones around,we used 28 gauge fiber wads on top of heavy cards over powder,charge was 60gr ffg and an equal volume of shot,the one I am most familiar with looks exactly like the standard cavalry issue with cut down carbine stock,I was told that one of the large chain stores or hardware stores made them up in the `50`s or sometime thereabouts as a cheap black powder hunting gun,the one we shoot handles very nice,although it is muzzle-light,we never weighed it but it didn`t seem to be much over 5 or 6 lbs.we took it to a few shows to see about value,we were told around $100-150 in very good condition.it is a fun shooter and has accounted for quite a few tree rats and the occaisional rabbit.not fluid enough in my opinion for bird hunting (unless you shoot them on the ground)but I`ve seen worse.have fun with it.I`m not sure about the 1950`s conversion,seems like it would have made more sense during the depression to make very low cost utility grade guns like them.jmho

BB,

What in the world are you talking about?

I think it was Bannerman`s that offered them as shotguns.I had heard that by the time bores were reduced to 58 cal,that the barrels were all being rifled,if I`ve been misled,I`m sorry,we had always been told the gun we had was converted .ours did not have the full length stock though.I hope I`m not giving out the wrong info here.the price I gave was an average from 3 dealers at a gun show.they had told me the same story about the gun I had being converted to a shotgun,not a smooth bore rifle.

We are discussing a US Model 1861 - - - that is one of most widely used arms of the Civil War era, with total production of the Model 1861 and 1863 exceeding 1.5 million, Springfield Armory accounting for close to 800,000 alone.

They were originally .58 caliber rifled muskets from the very start.

There were some 32 private contractors making them, E. Robinson being one. The cleanest example we have is a Savage.

Values start at $750 for original specimens in "good" condition . . . and go up from there, to well over $3000.

These are 140 year-old guns . . . not recent production at all.

[ 03-17-2003, 11:48: Message edited by: RandyWakeman ]

Sorry,all I was going on was the owners statement that it was a smoothbore,I thought it might have been one of those that had been made up to fire shot,as you state,all 58`s were rifled-muskets,not smoothbores.

The original post says that the 1861 is a smoothbore. This is possible. Some were bored out for use as shotguns in the post war market. Also, poor maintenance may have resulted in very faint rifling near the muzzle where the poster is no doubt looking. I have to say that the altered ramrod and missing front sight support the idea that this is a shotgun "conversion".

#1 is in the $700 or less range (current market). #2 is really hard to pin down but the repair is professional and old, I'd say $1500-2500. That really depends on the buyer's desire and if you can find that "good" buyer.

Gentlemen, thank you again for all your information. It certainly will give me a good start when investigating the origins of these rifles. Flayderman's also has a BBS where I asked similar questions. I also received excellent information there as well.

Thanks again.

Thanks for posting Hobie,I didn`t think the gun I had used on & off for 15 years or so was a figment of my imagination,but a real 1861 converted at one time to a smoothbore for firing shot.R.W. you almost had me on my way to the "bin" to get rid of those silly halucinations. now I find out someone else has seen them too,either I was not all wrong on the subject or we`re seeing mass (well,ok 2)halucinations dealing with old guns here.I do try not to mis-inform on most of my posts here.I was wrong about the dates they were converted and the offers we got do seem very low now,glad we never sold that gun.jmho

Not trying to get you on the way to the bin, looney or otherwise.

My father (turns 76 next month) has collected US Military stuff from (pre-1776 to present day) for some 50 years, so some of this stuff rubs off - - - or at least rubs, but shouldn't rub you the wrong way.

I'm lost as to the "conversion." If you want to blow shot through a rifled .58, you sure can. An overpowder wad + overshot wad and you are there. Those barrel walls are thin- it is not going to be a 12 ga. no matter what you do. You need a different barrel for that.

The notion of converting by "boring it out" it loses me. Are we going to choke the barrel as well somehow?

.69 caliber smoothbores (Model 1816 US)had a production of over 625,000 from Springfield and Harpers Ferry . . . some of those were made as musketoons, used as meat-getters.

One of the most common conversion guns was the "ZULU" shotgun - - - those started off as French rifled muskets / / / were convented to breechloaders, then remaindered off as war surplus to Belgian arms dealers who converted then into 10 + 12 ga. shotguns. The "war surplus" was sold via Sears for $3.50 or so in the 1880s, they are worth only 75- $150 today. (The war referred to is the Franco-Prussian War circa. 1870, not the American Civil War.)

There are these Zulus and other guns that have never been particularly sought after - - - not so with original, US military stamped examples.

[ 03-18-2003, 12:13: Message edited by: RandyWakeman ]

Randy,

US "surplus" military arms have been "converted" to civilian use since the beginning of the nation. Some were modified, some weren't. During and post CW, thousands of rifles, muskets and rifle muskets were destroyed, stolen, lost, etc. There was a huge immigration and westward migration post CW and just about all had a gun of some kind. Cheap was good. Muskets that had not been well cared for weren't re-rifled but some, quite a few I think, had their bores cleaned up for use as shotguns. I believe that Elmer Keith even talks about using one such converted musket. Smoothbores were often preferred because they were more flexible and able to use ball, buck, shot, etc. effectively and easier to clean/maintain with a wad of tow and hot water.

Yeah, you can use shot in a .58 with the rifling. However, I don't think that's what we're talking about. I'd bet that Fisher's 1861 either has rifling so worn or covered with crud that it appears to be smoothbore or it has in fact been bored out smooth. Look at the ramrod head. This isn't the normal tulip tip but an add on that has the near bore size, flat shotgun style head used to keep the wad flat and square in the bore. This points to a purpose built conversion. When this took place is anybody's guess. People have been cheap, poor etc. many times in the last 1000 years! (note those on these forums wanting to reream loading dies, etc.)

And no, barrels often weren't choked. Too much cost for businesses like Bannerman's and the technology was not there for some "gunsmiths".

This pattern of conversion of military weapons to civilian use continues to this day with the Swedish M96s, Yugo M48s, CZ 24s, P-14s, etc. Some people are restoring or redoing conversions done 50 years ago and the variations seem to be uncountable. Who knows who or when this 1861 was also converted/modified or why. Shooters do some odd things, no?

"I'd bet that Fisher's 1861 either has rifling so worn or covered with crud that it appears to be smoothbore or it has in fact been bored out smooth. Look at the ramrod head. "

I would guess the former, but of course I have not inspected the gun.

Yes, the ramrod is not standard. That alone means little, except the gun "isn't all there," and suffers in value accordingly.

I suspect that with a barrel that appears no larger, it is a .58 - - - naturally, I could be wrong.

Sure, there have been all kinds of civilian conversions . . . most of the Civil War era gunmakers quickly went under post-war, victims of their own surplus. Including the Burnside, Spencer, and other reasonably popular repeaters that saw action late in the war.

The point I`m trying to get through is the 1861 we were using was converted to smooth bore.we are NOT shooting shot loads in a rifled barrel,I have done that before and patterns are very bad,this gun gave cylinder bore patterns or we would not have hunted squirrels and rabbits with it.I did not alter it,it was like that when purchased,our ramrod also had a flattened tip,unlike that used for minie bullet seating.I know they were originally "rifled muskets" but some have been altered,If I remember right I heard some 45-70`s were also bored smooth to be used as "meat guns" not sure what cartridge they used as I`ve never (yet) seen a 45-70 shot shell.not trying to be a problem here,but I know the gun I`m talking about,It is not something I`ve heard about but actually used. I know 60gr ffg is a normal 12 ga load,but that is the charge we used since the early 1960`s and we never had any problems.

Understood.

Fisher is trying to determine whether the above guns are "original" the way I read his posting and the title of this thread.

I have no idea as to the second gun, if the first example is "original," it is .58 cal and rifled. The ramrod is not.

That Golcher back-action lock halfstock IS NOT a "Kentucky Rifle"!!

Eldeguello, if you are referring to the fact that the Kentucky rifle was actually invented in Pennsylvania. As well as most of them being built there, I realize that. I posted the pictures because I knew very little about these rifles. If you have any information about them that would help other then "That Golcher back-action lock halfstock IS NOT a "Kentucky Rifle" I would be greatful.

Just for a quick update for those of you that might be interested.

After talking to several people about the first rifle. It seems that it is in its original configuration except for the following pieces the rear sight and the ramrod. This was also pointed out by several of you here (thank you). The barrel is still at its original length as is the stock or forearm. There is in fact still rifling in the barrel although it is faint towards the end. The barrel rings are also original. From what I was told this was evident because of the �U� stamped on them. This can actually be seen in the picture above. The lock is still in working order and in good condition. It was also mentioned that many of these guns were sold as surplus and altered for sale to civilians. This was done by cutting the barrel and stock back and sometime reaming the bores out smooth. This information also matches what was posted above by several of you.

Below is some additional information that I received that verified some of your postings above.

Model 1861 Rifle made by Edward Robinson of New York in 1864 for the Civil War.

He received 4 contracts to make 47,000 arms of which 30,000 were delivered.

There are two versions for the lock plate markings. The first both lines of text are straight the second the maker's name is arched over New York. (Mine is the arched text)

As for the second rifle, I still have very little information other than what I have found below. I did find a rifle over there that had the same lock on it as well as the �Josh Golcher� name on it. The style of the gun was the same except this one had a brass patch box in the stock. He had no information as to the origin of the rifle.

Another source tells me that it is a Schuetzen-style target piece. Because of the trigger guard and double set triggers he would date it at 1870's and -80's. This information is through an e-mail and I can not verify it.

Once again gentlemen, thank you for all your help.

Fisher, I was referring to the style of that Golcher rather than where it was made. As you know, most early "Kentuckies" were actually made somewhere in PA. But in later years, some gunsmiths had moved to MD, VA., Kentucky, etc. A "Kentucky rifle", strictly speaking, is characterised by a long, octogon barrel, a front-action flintlock, (although in later years, some were converted to caplock), and a full stock, 99% of which were made of maple. That Golcher has a front-action caplock, and shows no signs of having had a pan/frizzen, so it must have been made as a caplock originally. I believe it also has a walnut stock (or so it appears in the photo). What caliber is it? How long is the barrel?? MOST (but certainly not all) Kentuckys were .45 cal. or smaller, bu there were some as big as .60+!! Most had barrels of 40" or longer.