Unsafe Muzzleloaders?

It is a sad fact that many muzzleloaders produced today with Spanish barrels are marked with a pressure rating of 700 kp/cm�-- CLEARLY stamped on the barrels. Relying on the ignorance of the muzzleloading community, aren’t they are the most popular barrels sold in the USA today? The dirty secret is that the proof rating above is converted to PSI by the following formula: kp/cm� x 14.22 = psi. Directly put, these barrels are factory marked to a pressure of 9954 PSI MAX.

It is also well documented that so-called magnum loads, for example 150 grains of Pyrodex pushing a 260 grain saboted projectile can easily develop pressures exceeding 20,000 PSI. Much more moderate charges of 100 grains of Pyrodex pushing the same 260 grain saboted bullet can easily develop pressures in the 13,000-14,000 range. In fact, the original Pyrodex pellet patent states this quite clearly, to name only one document.

Do these soft, low-pressure barrels have any business being fired with loads that create more than TWICE the stamped barrel’s pressure rating? Does this create an unnecessary risk both to the shooter, and to those around him? Will it likely take death or dismemberment and the resultant lawsuits for this to change?

Some may think my barrel safety questions inappropriate. Why would any manufacturer market borderline or untested product? Why would Ford Motor company knowingly sell Pintos with defective gas tanks, why would Enron steal money from its employees, why would Bridgestone-Firestone sell defective tires, why would Morton-Thiokol okay space shuttle O-ring systems their engineers had severe reservations about? Why would Remington Arms (RACI Holding) continue to settle defective Walker triggers? MUST it take a “60 Minutes expose or loss of life to change or improve things?

Would anyone in their right mind reload a smokeless cartridge to TWICE the SAMMI specifications, or come anywhere proof pressures? Don’t today’s muzzleloading companies actively promote similar practices? Who is more stupid, the people that ignore pressure ratings on barrels—or the companies that tell you it is somehow “okay” to fire charges in barrels that have never, EVER been individually tested to take such pressures?

Call me dense, but what automobile manufacturer’s manual tells you to over-inflate your tires by 100% of the stamped maximum pressure on the sidewall? What smokeless powder firearms manufacturer directs you to set off any single load in any single gun at near proof pressure in any barrel under any circumstances, much less EXCEED it? Yet, some muzzleloading companies, apparently, do it all the time. Wouldn’t a lot of people like to know what that might have to do with THEIR own gun, and what pressure their gun is REALLY proofed for? Pressure limits are no secret in SAMMI / smokeless-land: in muzzleloading, it apparently is!

Hodgdon Powder has long warned that either 100 grains Pyrodex pellets in .50 caliber or 100 grains Triple Seven pellets in .50 caliber is THE MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE LOAD. When muzzleloading manufacturers deviate from the propellant maker’s warnings, the burden is on them to prove its safety, in my opinion.

Are they DANGEROUS? I don’t know. Have they ever been shown to be safe with high-octane loads? How does a modern muzzleloader know what his gun is capable of? Shouldn’t modern muzzleloaders be PROVED safe prior to sale? ISN’T IT A VERY REASONABLE QUESTION FOR ANY GUN OWNER TO ASK?

I think it most certainly is.

� 2003 Randy Wakeman
All Rights Reserved.
No portions of the above text may be reproduced, stored, or transmitted without the written permission of Randy Wakeman or his assigns.

I had no idea that this problem existed.I have been happily shooting my traditional muzzleloader using 70-80g of powder. In my mind it is sad that the industry has pushed the velosity so high. Almost all the new muzzleloaders being sold around here are inlines, and hunters are using 120-150g of powder in them. They have bought the advertising. The companys have been making huge profits and a lawsuit would be the only thing that would stop that.
Randy, is it just a few companys using soft barrels, or is the problem wide spread?

Randy, if you think this is bad, how about the many American custom gun makers and smaller barrel makers that are using 12L14 steel in their barrels?

Unfortunately, I think I probably have one of these. More than likely, if you have a custom rifle or a custom barrel you do too....

Brent

Hello Hawky,

What you are doing is (all my opinion) the safe and sensible thing. I'm not an alarmist, but there has been no change in the ratings on many Spanish barreled guns that have suddenly become "magnum muzzleloaders."

Hodgdon Powder has never, ever allowed more than 100 grains of either Pyrodex pellets or 100 grains of Triple Seven pellets in a .50 caliber muzzleloader. So, when, companies decide to break the powder manufacturer's rules-- they are ones that need to show that their guns are reasonably safe.

Though most all muzzleloading manufacturers have been all too happy to share their testing information with me (Knight, Thompson, White Rifles, Savage, Austin & Halleck, etc.)--- unfortunately, neither Traditions nor CVA will.

Instead, Traditions and CVA have elected to attack me personally for daring to ask what their marked as 700 kp/cm� are actually tested to, how they are tested, and what specific bullet weights they are tested with.

Some people feel that customers somehow need to PROVE that these barrels are unsafe. My opinion is that is the MANUFACTURERS that need to have reasonable testing information at the ready if they are going to recommend 25,000 PSI +++ loads can be safely shot through barrels that have 10,000 PSI marked on them in their printed manuals.

I'm not accusing CVA or Traditions of selling unsafe product, all I'm saying is I don't know. Neither Traditions or CVA could be bothered to offer any evidence or documentation to show IF they are tested / proofed barrels. I darn well think THEY are the ones that need to prove their products as safe with their 150 grain loads prior to sale, not their customers after the sale.

Randy, Many thanks for a very informative post. To be sure I'm understanding exactly what you are saying....It is the gun makers, not the powder makers, telling us what, and how much, powder to use w/o any testing of the barrels prior to assembly?
I'm not a fan of the "pill", but many are, and this could lead to a disaster if conditions should suddenly go south.
Russ

I believe it would be very dangerous to use a load that produces 25,000 or more PSI in any muzzleloader except the Savage which is made to handle smokeless powder. Not primarily because of the steel that the barrel is made from, but due to the fact that the ML is an "open-breech" system in which the flame is introduced to the main charge through a nipple (caplock/209 breechplug)or touch hole (flintlock) from the outside world. Neither of these ignition systems is strong enough to prevent potentially dangerous "backfires" if pressures of 25K or higher are routinely developed. If one looks at the old Lyman BP manual containing pressure data obtained by Ed Yard, very few loads he developed produced much over 15,000 PSI, and some were pretty heavy loads, considering the projectiles he was using in those days, which included heavy Minie bullets and Maxi-balls. I don't believe any of those loads were the equivalent of 150 grains of Pyrodex P, however!!

[ 06-20-2003, 22:14: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

I have a .50 Traditions inline (Lightning) but I use only 90 grains of FFg or Pyrodex with a 295-grain PowerBelt in it, since this is the most accurate load I have tried, but I never tried the 150-grain charge!.

Brent , to explain to others 12L14 is a free machining grade of steel containing small amounts of lead and significant amounts of phosphorous and sulphur. It isn't the greatest steel. High power barrels are typically made of free maching grade of 4140.

You know, none of this would mean a thing, if we the buyers didn't buy into the crap the manufacturers have fed us--particularly Knight (who pretty much started it all) !!! Most of the people I hunt with use .54's with 60-70 gr of Goex ffg for deer quite sucessfully. Rarely do we shoot more than 75 yds.--hunting by stalking your quarry. Roundballs work great--in a barrel with a slow twist. Our magnum loads--for Roosevelt Elk--vary between 70 gr fffg/roundball to 370 gr maxiball over 100 gr of ffg. It works! Nuf' said..Chuck

If any of you have access to the old Buckskin Report magazines, go back through them. bob Olsen sectioned a Spanish barrel from one of his deputies' pistols after he was having trouble loading it, and having no accuracy. It had been bored from both ends, with an offset in the drilling of approximately 1/32 of an inch. It was rifled from both ends, with no semblance of match from oneset of rifling to another. I examined this barrel at the police station, and couldn't believe any company anywhere in the world would turn out crap like this.
But then again, some people will shoot inlines with production barrels. Not for me, no thanks.
Remember, they are made to the highest standards.
by the lowest bidder.

Nutcase,
Why would he need to call me in? I've been here for a while. I just don't post much cause I really don't care for this board. BTW, I don't think much of you insulting people behind their backs.

Wakeman, I only use social skills when there are those who understand them. Unlike you and wolfhound and I dont send for back up via emails
I am still waiting for you to put your $$ where your mouth is. Get all the barrels and have a independent lab do the testing. Then we will see if you have any truth to your allegations.

Put up or shut up.

Sorry Wolfhound...I can say it to your face if you want me to. Give me directions and I will do it. It is more fun that way.

Oh and the quote crap has to go. Especially when you take what was put on one forum and place it on another. Just post a dang link (which is proper etiquette).

If it is deleted...big deal.

And who said he emailed me? I've got a number of forums I'm on and that I check from time to time to see if there's anything new. Sometimes there's good info, and sometimes trash like you posted. Hey what should I expect? I use the same name on all the forums I'm on (or at least pretty close to it when I can't). What else should I expect with a name like yours?

Did someone say Wakeman???

Well, now, isn't this interesting.
My original posting on unsafe barrels is back after I inquired about it. It had mysteriously disappeared for a week or so. Now the questions and responses regarding it are gone, and a regular pissing match has shown up.
I know damn well Saeed isn't screwing with the postings here.
Whos' little kingdom is being upset here? If whoever is editing the posts is such a dick head, I will definitely suggest to the Saeed he take a look, and get someone who's head isn't inserted into his circular muscle.
Damn poor way to exchange info.
I didn't know a democrat was the moderator here. Freedom of speech, but only for me, he says.
Asshole.

There are two basic types of "proof." "Provisional" proof that applies generally to barrels in the early stages of manufacture to prevent the maker from continuing work on defective tubes.

Definitive proof applies to all arms and is effected "in the white" or in the finished state.

Inspection of many Traditions and CVA guns will clearly show the Eibar definitive black powder proof mark as shown by #2 above. Likely you will also see #9, the ammunition inspection proof mark as well. This will be followed by a pressure stamped on the barrel-- typically 700KP/CM2. That pressure is expressed in "kiloponds / cm2." The equivalent in PSI is approx. 9957 PSI.

It is well-documented that 150 grain Pyrodex pellet loads pushing 250 to 300 grain saboted projectiles can exceed 2.5 X that pressure, often upwards of 25,000 - 27,000 PSI. These are common loads, not "unusual" loads.

There is no evidence to show that these barrels are tested stateside in any way, and there is evidence to show that they are not as in imported muzzleloaders coming here a day or so after clearing customs.

If there is further testing beyond what is clearly stamped on the barrels, it is unknown - - - and not reflected on the original substandard proof embossed on those barrels, nor is there any supplementary proof to indicate that this is being done.

The simple question, posed again and again, is have those guns been proofed or tested to 20,000 PSI, 25,000 PSI, 30,000 PSI? If so, who is doing the testing, and what guns are being tested? Why are there no marks to indicate a "tested" barrel from an untested one? What specific loads ARE they tested with? Are they tested with pellets at all? What metal IS used in these soft, extruded barrels? How do I know that MY gun has been tested beyond the internationally respected house of Eibar stamp?

WHAT reasonable assurances can be provided to a customer so he knows HIS individual gun has been tested?

Somehow, a terse phone call from a manufacturer that says these proofs are "not really proof marks" or "just a manufacturing mark" or "minimum pressures" or "it is ALL hogwash-- just follow the manual" seems ill-prepared, clumsy, and insufficient.

Traditions and CVA / BPI have been aware of these questions for some time. They have been unable to answer or fully address them. (Unless you think that Traditions calling me "anti Second Amendment" or CVA starting a "Randy, you are out of your mind" thread on their forum should be construed as an answer to these questions.)

I don't know what testing there is, with what, by who, and why the Eibar Proof marks remain far, far too low. If anybody has an answer, I'm here to learn.

The public response from Traditions and CVA / BPI has been non-existent. If they can address these issues fully, and put the matter to rest, why haven't they?

The educated consumer can decide for themselves what chances they MAY OR MAY NOT be taking. As to if they are tested or safe with "their loads," I cannot possibly say either way. I WISH I could say that I believe these guns to be well-tested and proven safe. The best I can offer remains "I don't know."