I'm shooting a Lyman Great Plains Hunter 1 in 60 twist and .537 (miked) round cast balls w/Ox Yoke pre-lubed .005 thickness patches (I started out with .010 patches, too durn hard to shove the ball down the barrel). In the manual that I got with the rifle it showed how the patches should look AFTER you find one on the ground after shooting a ball. It showed a nice round patch with "tire tracks" alternating across the patch for the lands and "light tire tracks" for the grooves in the manual. This was, of course, for a correctly sized patch and ball. Mine, when we finally found out just how far out they were going, looked like a rat with a bad attitude chewed it apart. Is this normal for the Ox Yoke patches? I'm using Swiss FFg powder at 80 grains. The accuracy seems OK at this time but I haven't fired the gun with the 1 in 60 twist barrel enough to really tell where I am on the loads yet. Man I do love this Black Powder shooting though!! Mike

I just bought the same rifle you have but in a lefty version. I just picked mine up this week so I haven't shot it for groups yet. I just went back to Goex FFG from H777, you should have seen my patches after 100gr of that stuff... Hoo-eee, there wasn't enough left for a rat to chew on. A friend of mine (Goex user) tells me that he ignores what the patch looks like as long as he is getting the groups he wants. He doesn't use the premade patches tho, he buys cotton ticking from walmart and lubes it with hand cream. It mikes about .015-.020 and is most likely a lot more durable than the really thin ones. The RBs I bought and will most likely get a mould for are .530 so I can use the thicker patches.

Good luck,
Ian

Ian,

You're getting into muzzleloading in a big way aren't you?

Seriously, about the patches. As you know, the patch is NOT a gasket. It does NOT prevent blowby. The condition of the patch after it leaves the bore is indicative of the condition in which it traveled down the bore. It did not arrive at the muzzle intact and then suddenly and catastrophically disintegrate. The best remedy for blown patches that I know of is to use a bit of hornets' nest over powder, under patched ball. Performance is often enhanced. Most of us can find some with a bit of searching, it's only a matter of looking about when I'm out hunting (of course if you ask now, I won't be able to find any ) and a little goes a long way.

I've been shooting GOEX and in my rifles I don't have this problem and so, eliminate this step from the load chain.

As to patch material. Everyone has their prejudices. That's part of the fun I suppose! I like a good tightly woven linen patch, the commercial patches work well, and the pillow ticking is a solid third place in my personal choices. However I use it quite a bit, sometimes it is all you can find. I also think the lube is important and I like Wonder Lube aka Bore Butter. You will find some, perhaps many, that deride it. However, it works. I do have to ensure it is stored in a metal can as the mice will get into it otherwise... (can't trap them all!) Also, one thing the pre-made patches have going for them is consistency. That is very important.

I think all this fiddlin' about with the makins is what makes muzzleloadin' so much fun.

[ 09-30-2003, 04:04: Message edited by: Hobie ]

I think your balls are too big ( ) and patches too thin.
You probably should try .530" balls with .020" or .015" patches. The premade Ox Yoke works for me. Also I never use petroleum products inside the bore to clean or preserve it...they hasten the fouling buildup.
I can only use the .020" patch in a clean bore. After that they're too tight so follow up shots require the .015" size. After many, many shots .010" might be needed. The thinner the patch the worse they look after firing; and the worse accuracy. At least that's the experience in my 54 caliber Pedersoli Mortimer flintlock.

You know that the lead ball should not be touching the rifling, right? That's the job of the patch...to inpart the spin from the rifling to the ball. That's why you hunt for those spent patches to check their condition, ie., tire tracks not shredding. In my experience the kind or quantity of powder had nothing to do with how the spent patch looked, but thickness meant everything.

Also the lands might be a bit sharp from the machining process. I use the Ox-yokes.015 with bore butter and a 445RB in my 50. Seems to work ok for me and no patch problems. derf

derf

I hope those are 0.495 RBs you are using in the 50 Cal.

I find 445s are a bit loose in my 50 cal

LouisB

I agree with the smaller ball/thicker patch answer, the largest ball that works well in my Lyman .54 GPR is .535, I use an .012 patch and get great accuracy for target shooting (wet patch after each shot). I use an .010 for hunting and get about 4 shots before having to wet patch the barrel. I use the Lyman lube.

Fourtails, what you're describing results from patches that are too thin. The combined thickness of the patch, (doubled, of course) plus the ball diameter, should total a couple of thousandths of an inch BIGGER than the groove diameter of the barrel, so when you load, patching material is forced into the soft lead of the ball. For example, for competiton shooting I use a .500" diameter ball and patch material that is .012" thick in a barrel with .500" land diameter and .010" deep grooves. It is hard to start, but slides down easy after strting and shoots great (1" @ 100 yards on calm days). For hunting, I switch to a .495" ball for easier loading. But this combination is not as accurate.

[ 09-29-2003, 22:19: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

Mike,
As usual, I'm going to disagree with a bunch of these posts. I'm always the odd guy out.

But, you have a new and presumably smooth barrel. So, rough lands are not tearing your patch. That being the case, the only thing that makes sense is that you are getting burn through - which looks like tearing because gasses moving very fast will effectively tear the matieral badly.

Where are the gasses coming from? They are coming from the powder of course and they are jetting past the ball, probably in the bottom of the grooves. Using 2fg powder, which is quite hot in a .54, this is quite likely. I use 100 gr of Swiss 1.5fg in my flinter and can have the same problem.

My solution is similar to, but easier than the paper wasp nest suggestion. I use a lubed felt wad from OxYoke. This will generally stop the burn through and is essential to my load when temperatures are cold in particular.

However, one other issue that helps is a TIGHTER patch/ball combo. Not looser. You said you found it difficult to start the balls. But that is indeed normal, depending on what you mean by "difficult". Generally, it takes a good whack on a short-starter to get them moving. Then, once started they should go down reasonably easily with a ramrod.

The end result is a ball that is already at least partially engraved by the rifling (even through the cloth). This means that the grooves are pretty well stoppered with patch and lead and gasses cannot jet past the ball during the onset of ignition. Those first few milliseconds when pressure is high, but not so high as to cause the ball to obdurate and fill the grooves is where your gas cutting and patch tearing is occuring. Tighter, with a rear pad like the Oxyoke felts will get you there.

Otherwise, try a slower powder like 2fg Goex, but do not ever mistake 2fg Swiss for 2fg Goex. The Swiss do not sell their powder as a 2fg powder. That is added by the distributor in the US. 2fg Swiss is really #3 Swiss, and it's a whole'nother animal.

Just for reference about how different, 17.5 gr of 3fg Goex in my .25-20 Singleshot cartridge rifle gives IDENTICAL velocity to 17.5gr of 1.5 fg Swiss. So your 2fg Swiss is faster than 3fg Goex if you want to cross walk between powders. Use 2fg Swiss, but be prepared to mess with patches, ball diameter, and overpowder wads (BTW, a Circle Fly fiber wad used for 28 ga muzzleloaders or some thing close to 28 guage anyway, would probably work well in your rifle for an overpowder wad.

Brent

Note that Brent said fiber wad. Don't use plastic.

He's right that a felt wad will work. However, with the correct combo, you don't need to use either. I use .530 balls and .010 patching with Bore Butter. That works in my rifle. Every rifle is different and that is why we have to play around a bit to understand them.

BTW, you don't have to shoot the big loads while looking for a good ball patch combo. You can shoot 50 gr. charges until you find a good combo with promise and then step it up. Just shoot at reduced ranges, say 50 yards.

I tell you, muzzleloading is more fun than anything else that is legal.

TC; You are right! Dang,thats two apologies in one night. Can I blame this one on my mild case of Dyslexia? derf

Okay, I'll go back to the .010 patches and see what they look like when I find them. I do think I will back off on the loads to the recommended 50 grains and bump up as necessary and see what happens. Thanks all! Later, Mike

Had the same problem with my T/C Hawkin 50. Was using .014 pillow ticking soaked in Bore Butter with a .490 ball. A wad over the powder helped but was not a cure. Even tried a different barrel. Finally went to a .020 denim patch lubed with Crisco and that solved the problem. Getting the ball and this patch started is difficult and is only suitable bench shooting. For hunting you may want to go with a smaller ball. I still use the wad because, for me, accuracy is improved. You can make your own using 1/8" or thicker wool felt, lube, and a hollow punch. The best and cheapest source of thick 100% wool felt is the ladies hat section at your local Good Will or Salvation Army store.

Sir: deep rifling suggests a thick patch. hunting loads suggest a ball/patch combination reasonable to load. muzzle inspection will tell of a proper crown without burrs. a tight patch on a cleaning jag will tell of burrs on the rifling. these are more critical concerning patch burnthrough than load pressure. good shooting. ned

I bought some Ox-Yoke prelubed 28 guage/54 caliber wads to try. Will post results when I get another chance to shoot. Which I hope is sooner rather than later. I have an itchy trigger finger. Mike

Hope I don't get too windy, I too have a GPR in .54 first things first the bore of your rifle, until it gets a couple of 100 rounds through it is rough. Now for a enhancement. Take a 30 cal bore brush metal one, cut a strip off a scotch brite pad 1/2 inch and spiral wrap it around the bristles, then while watching the tube, start at the btm and work your way up about 6 inches at a time whild overlapping an up down stroke, do this for about 100 pumps each 6 inches which will take a while but worth it. Now when you are done clean your rifle and put it away with your favorite storage lube. You notice that most all short starters have a bullet seater on the side. Well if you have a friend with a lathe, have him make you a ball seater using a 9/16ths (.562) ball nosed cutter if you can find a cutter grind shop that will make you one ball size that is better. Make a short starter out of nylon (cone shape the end with the same ball nosed cutter) and make the handle end into a small mallet. Now toss the .005 patch matierial. Get some ticking in the .015 to .020 range. Since you have been to some one with a tool shop, ask for some water soluable oil. Mix 1 part oil 10-20 parts water. This will be your patch lube, for general shooting informal or formal. For hunting use 1tbsp oil 3tbsp water let lubed patches dry, this will leave nothing but the oil in your patches, and will shoot to the same pt of aim as the 10-1 (moose milk) Now for the reason for your new short starter and bullet seater, your ball is probably supposed to be .535 if you are using wheelweights they generally run a little larger, this is not bad as long as you don't quench when casting as this will give you a hard ball. But with the ball over your thicker patch, take your new seater, and carfully, give it a good rap with your new mallet short starter, here you will notice one thing with your sprue up, by the time you get the bullet seated in the muzzle it will be gone. Now you will find that you just swaged the round ball tight patch to fit your bbl, and it will take little effort to push down with your short starter and ramrod. I have a recut ball nose that is .537 I shoot .535 round ball with a .020 10-1 patch and I do get very good groups and no patch shredding or burn or blow out, up to and including 150gn of 2f. My normal all around load is 60gns of goex 2f. I do use 100 at 100yd matches, with no accuracy loss. When I am out deer hunting with this rifle it gets the 3-1 dried patches and 60gns of 2f. It works for me. Enuff wind.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this, but if you have a Great Plains HUNTER, it will have a 1:32 twist. If you have a Great Plains RIFLE, it will have a 1:60 twist.

Even if they are smooth as a baby's bottom, the edges of the lands on new barrels are often quite SHARP, and will cut through the patches until the edges are worn (actually rounded off) enough to stop cutting them. This has been noted for centuries with new barrels. A blown patch is different from a cut patch, is caused by gas blow-by, and the difference is quite noticeable upon inspection. A tighter ball/patch combination is the most effective approach to reduce/eliminate blown patches.

A tighter