The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Single Shot Rifles * UPDATED * A very interesting Rook Rifle - 300 Long Shot caliberGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| * UPDATED * A very interesting Rook Rifle - 300 Long Shot caliber | Login/Join |
One of Us |
A very interesting Rook Rifle - 300 Long Shot caliber Hello All, Aside from Big-Bores .. I also love the little ones. I especially like the Rook Rifles used by the Brits. This one is a Belgium Proofed Mariette. Its a Side-Lever Take-Down rifle. The rifle shows very high quality with excellent workmanship, some remaining case color, and a Mint Bore. It has an ejector-assist, and it even has heel & toe plates. It is in an extremely rare 300 Long Shot caliber. I could not find any information about this cartridge nor any loading data, so I had to contrive some from scratch and experiment. I searched every nook and cranny for info on this cartridge, but found nothing. And, there are no existing cartridges to use to make this case. Because I could find no parent cartridge, I had the brass cases made by Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co. They are custom brass case producers. I have used them many, many times in the past to make several different hard to find cases. After making a chamber cast, I made a drawing showing the dimensions. As usual, RMC came to my rescue with 50 custom cases. After much experimentation, I came up with the load shown below. As always, comments are welcome ...      " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | ||
|
| One of Us |
Fascinating! I’ll follow your load development with interest. Is that a factory cartridge case? Where are you placing the wadding? Thanks Larry | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hello ChiefR53, Thanks for the reply. I cannot find any Factory case like it. It might have been some kind of special order to get more black powder behind the bullet. The small toilet paper pill goes into the case before putting in the powder. It helps to reduce air space and keeps the powder from shifting around. Here is the range report. I went to the range this morning and I am very pleased with the results. It was pretty cold outside so I only shot on our 50 foot indoor range. I got all the information I was looking for. -see the target- The target is one of my FLY targets. We use these in offhand competition during the Winter Months to keep our skills sharp. The black circles are 3/8" thick and 2-3/8" outside diameter. Although we shoot mostly with scopes and aim directly at the fly, the thick black circle allows the use of iron sights, as I did with this rifle. If the bullet stays totally inside the black circle, you get 1 point. If you "HIT" the fly (wing, antenna, leg) its a "HIT" and you get 2 points. If you "KILL the fly by hitting the head or body, its a "KILL" and you get 3 points. 2-shots per fly - total of 10 shots per target. You can shoot unlimited sighters at the upper left target to get settled in. Best score you can get is a "30". Each relay is 1 target, 10 targets total for a match. As you can see by the target, the rifle performed most admirably. It took only 2 shots to get it zeroed-in, and then; the last 3 shots resulted in 1-HIT, and 2-KILLS. What a HOOT ! ! ! And look at the standard deviation .. a "6" ... that's amazing and surpassed my most optimistic expectations. I'm still grinning 3 hours later. Rooks and Rabbits beware. .... and squirrels too.  " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
|
| One of Us |
In all of my cast bullet loads, I put the powder in and then the case filler, be it dacron, Grex or, in the old days COW. If the TP goes in first, how does the spark from the primer get to the powder? NRA Patron Life Member Benefactor Level | |||
|
| One of Us |
I've been waiting to hear this one myself. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hello DocEd, Thanks for the reply. Testing had shown there was an issue with powder position within the case. This is a straight case with no taper. When the powder was full back against the primer, there was a pressure spike in the case neck and the case would stick in the chamber. When the powder was level, or full forward, there was no pressure issues. I've seen this happen before when cases were filled below 70% density. Some theorize that when the powder burns and builds pressure, there is a spike in pressure when it reaches the base of the stationary bullet. Some go so far as to say this can "ring" the chamber. Soft fillers like dacron, don't really change the jump in pressure at the base of the bullet. (in the neck) The 1" sq toilet paper pill keeps the powder forward in the case, closer to the base of the bullet. In this case it accounts for about 3/16" to 1/4" filler at the "bottom" of the case. I have done this with several different cartridges throughout the years and its performed perfectly. The 1" square of toilet paper does not inhibit ignition. The primer does not "spark" to ignite the powder. It creates an "explosion" to ignite the powder. To prove this - if you fire a primed cartridge in the dark, loaded with just the primer and no powder or bullet, you will see a flame shoot out the muzzle of the barrel. A small rolled "pill" the size of a pea, will not inhibit ignition, and in some cases it will actually make the ignition of the powder more uniform. As you can see, a 6 fps standard deviation is quite remarkable - in any cartridge.
Hello Herkimer, Thanks for the reply. I think the explaination to DocEd pretty much explains it. I've used this technique in numerous schuetzen cartridges during my 30 plus years of Schuetzen competition. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
|
| One of Us |
Buckstix, thank you for that explanation. I’m surprised I’ve never heard that in reading many ,many articles on loading nitro-for-black in the big Black powder express cartridges. The pressure wave or bouncing waves theories have been blamed for chamber ringing and led to all kinds of fillers. I personally use backing rod over the powder. Have you or others used this approach in the big BPE cartridges? Thanks | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hello ChiefR73, Thanks for the reply. I have occasionally experienced this "pressure spike" phenomena in long small dia cartridges, especially those that have very little taper, but not in any the Big Bores. I use backing rod in all my NFB loadings and have not experienced any problems. In the book; "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle, by Charles Dell, he discusses possible causes of chamber ringing. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
|
| One of Us |
Welll....that was interesting! I've been using fillers for...decades and, for the past 20 or so years, open cell foam as a filler. I don't know that I've ever heard of TP, then powder. I've certainly never talked to a fellow shooter who ever mentioned it. Is there more to tell, buckstix? If so, I'd like to hear it. Oh, the Rook rifle, looks like the typical British Daw action. I have a Jeffrey that looks the same except the lever is on the left side. They are great fun. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me". John 14:6 | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hello sharps4590, Thanks for the reply. Not much more to tell. As I mentioned in my earlier comment to DocED, my testing had shown there was an issue with powder position within the case. When the powder was full back against the primer, there was a "pressure spike" in the case neck and the case would stick in the chamber. It was so tight that it took a cleaning rod to free it. When the powder was level, or full forward, there was no pressure issues, and there was easy extraction. I have had this occur in the past with small dia, long straight cases, that were filled below 70% density. It would not be an issue at the range where you could be sure the powder was level, or full forward. But during hunting, if the gun was pointed "up" - like shooting at a squirrel in a tree, the "pressure-spike" would cause the case to stick and result in extraction problems. I didn't want to have to carry a cleaning rod with me when hunting. The 1" square of toilet paper, (single ply) rolled into a pill, keeps the powder "forward" in the case. I know this sounds unconventional, but it works. As evidenced by the target, and the low Standard Deviation of velocity, it works very well. Primers are much more powerful than most realize. The explosion of the primer, and the ensuring flame it creates within the case, easily ignores the presence of the small paper pill. Although this may seem strange to some, and goes against conventional reloading techniques, its not nearly as unconventional as the bullet I am using for this cartridge. So far no one has noticed, or commented, that I'm using a 32 cal bullet. The bore diameter of this rifle is .292", and the groove diameter is .300", - yet I'm using a bullet that has a major diameter of .313". That's a full .013" oversize. Yet, it shoots great. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
|
| One of Us |
Son-of-a-gun. I currently don't believe I have a need for such an arrangement but I'll darn sure keep it in mind. I never know what obscure cartridge I might find to work with. As far as the discrepancy in bullet diameters, I've done something similar. What I believe matters the most is if there is adequate release of the bullet by neck tension. That is, if the bullet you're using slips easily inside the neck of a fired case, a fella should be fine, especially if the bullet is cast or swaged. Any sizing in the barrel is done in the first inch or so, after that all things should be normal. If the bullet you're using won't slip inside a fired case....boy, you're working unplowed ground to me. I don't know anything about how well that would work. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me". John 14:6 | |||
|
one of us |
Some of the long-range BPCR guys have taken to putting a small dot of toilet tissue over the primer hole before charging with black powder to achieve the same result that Buck is achieving. Buck, sweet little rook and an amazing cartridge. I will be following closely any and all of your adventures with this little sweet pea at the range and in the field. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
|
| One of Us |
That pressure spike is probably what causes rifles with reduced loads to blow up. The bullet acts as an obstruction, the gas directly behind it momentarily stops, and the gas at the back piles up at the front. Judging by the toilet paper shortage, buckstix has been doing a lot of reloading. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hello sharps4590, Thanks for the reply. In this case I had no problem with the oversize bullet fitting in the case because I'm using a heel bullet.
Hello Bill/Oregon, Thanks for the reply. Yes, and some punch the primer through a piece of newspaper when seating it, in order to have it flach through the paper when it ignites.
Hello rikkochet, Thanks for the reply. Yes, that is one of the theories behind unexpected blow-ups with reduced loads. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
|
| One of Us |
If you ever get fascinated with very early American hammerless BPCR doubles give me a holler. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hello Jefffive, Thanks for the reply. Why? ... do you have one for sale? " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have a Joseph Jacobs made about 1880 in .45/70, probably for a buffalo shoot from a train. He was a high-end shotgun maker in Philadelphia, made rifles only for good customers, less than 10 total. I bought it a couple years ago to sell for the right offer. https://auctions.morphyauction...x?inventoryid=461319 "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
|
| one of us |
What if instead of doing the TP wad over the primer you construct a nitrated paper cartridge that holds the reduced charge? This would then be inserted into the case and the bullet loaded as usual. The paper cartridge would center the charge in the case and prevent it from moving around. I would think a soda straw paper cover would work.
| |||
|
| One of Us |
Cute gun. What do you suspect the year of manufacture to be? Not to ask silly questions, but if you're commissioning custom brass, couldn't you just spec the case volume you desire and skip the filler all together? Do you intend to actually use black powder where the full volume would be appropriate? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hello Jefffive, Thanks for the reply. Very Nice!
Hello Bobster, Thanks for the reply. The TP wad takes only a second to load, and as you can see from the target, it works great. No reason to try anything else.
Hello jpl, Thanks for the reply. I'm guessing the gun is from the late 1890s. Yes, I wanted full volume in case I wanted to try a full load of black powder someday. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
|
| One of Us |
You keep coming up with some great stuff. Congratulations on the new purchase. | |||
|
One of Us |
cool. too bad 7.62 nagant can't be used | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hello richj, Thanks for the reply. No need, I had custom brass made. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Single Shot Rifles * UPDATED * A very interesting Rook Rifle - 300 Long Shot caliber
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia