I would like to build a very light weight, walk around, deer rifle with an extra Martini Cadet action I have. Any thoughts on the cadet being strong enough for this round?

It's PLENTY strong (see Ackley's Handbook) but it ain't a single shot, at least not usually (grin).
Regards, Joe

Ted,

A couple of thoughts, primarily is if there is a particular reason you are thinking about the 6.5 arisaka round?

I did some thinking along similar lines a while ago, but I was thinking about chambering it for 25-35. Other chamberings I was considering was a 257 Robert and 260 Remington.

However, I think Frank DeHaas had cautioned about the higher pressured rounds but I can't find the book I read it in, I think it was "Single Shot Gunsmithing Ideas" or something that sounded similar to that, there was a lot written about the Cadet action. You can see if your local library can find you a copy.

The Arisaka round is, IMO, too large for the Cadet's barrel thread tenon. The Cadet is safe with 223-size case heads (0.375") loaded to 50K but nothing larger in diameter. With the 30-30-size case heads (0.420") the action is OK for ~40-45K loads but nothing greater in pressure.

Unfortunately the Arisaka case head is considerably larger in diameter than the 30-30, so therefore the pressures MUST be lower to avoid swelling the barrel tenon over the threads. This would mean using no factory loads at all, at all, ever.

I've faced the same dilemma and decided to use the 25-35 Ackley Improved as the very best compromise without venturing into very deep and very uncharted waters with any other wildcat. My friend George the Knifemaker has a Cadet in this chambering (among MANY others!) and he loves it. Use a 10" twist and it'll be fine for the heavy bullets as well as the light ones.

Or you could go with a 25 Copperhead on the 223 case with full loads.

Apparently the 7-30 Waters is also a top choice among the Cadet cognoscenti including Bob Snapp!
Regards, Joe

I love my 7-30 Waters cadet and it is a reliable 200-yard deer cartridge with 140-grain bullets. If you are set on a 6.5, a wildcat 6.5-30 would be a fun option. As J.D. said, stay with listed loads in the 40 to 45k pressure range if using a 30-30 bases case.

Ted338 - If it was for me, I'd opt for one of three different cartridges...

...the 6m/m TCU, .25 TCU, or the 6.5m/m TCU, any one of them for either rimless or rimmed brass. (Id probably pick rimless because donor brass is so much easier to get.) If I was going to shoot deer with it, I'd go the 6.5m/m TCU route. They are all a good fit for the little Martinis, whether Greener, BSA, Francotte, Cadet, or whatever.

I have used the 6m/m TCU a lot over the past 30 years, but mainly for nothing larger than javelina, little whitetails, and 'yotes. It is absolute smokin' death on them!! For regular use including larger deer, as I said, I'd go up to the 6.5 TCU.

Look for a story on the internet by RichJake where he did some 6.5X50 load development using my Contender barrel.

7X30 sounds like the perfect solution to your quest.

This is all great stuff and I thank everyone. I will be away for a few day, but will ponder these thoughts and check back in when i return.

Just want to add that if you don't like the TCU series of cartridges bcause of their lack of rims, there are a lot of deer-capable cartridges based on the .357 Maximum case which does have a rim. And the case head is small enough diameter on the Maximum progeny to reduce the worry about an overload stressing the action more than one would want.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
The Arisaka round is, IMO, too large for the Cadet's barrel thread tenon. The Cadet is safe with 223-size case heads (0.375") loaded to 50K but nothing larger in diameter. With the 30-30-size case heads (0.420") the action is OK for ~40-45K loads but nothing greater in pressure.

Unfortunately the Arisaka case head is considerably larger in diameter than the 30-30, so therefore the pressures MUST be lower to avoid swelling the barrel tenon over the threads. This would mean using no factory loads at all, at all, ever.

I've faced the same dilemma and decided to use the 25-35 Ackley Improved as the very best compromise without venturing into very deep and very uncharted waters with any other wildcat. My friend George the Knifemaker has a Cadet in this chambering (among MANY others!) and he loves it. Use a 10" twist and it'll be fine for the heavy bullets as well as the light ones.

Or you could go with a 25 Copperhead on the 223 case with full loads.

Apparently the 7-30 Waters is also a top choice among the Cadet cognoscenti including Bob Snapp!
Regards, Joe

J.D.

As I mentioned, I've considered a project like this in 25-35. Can you give me your opinion of the 25-35 AI instead of a non-improved chambering? I have no experience with either round and will be handloading for the most part but would be interested in your thoughts on the matter.

Mark, my main experience is with the various 219 Zippers, standard and Improved. Very, very similar in case shape and dimensions to the 25-35 and responds in a very similar manner. In addition my friend George the Knifemaker has briefed me extensively (grin) on his own Cadet 25-35's response as well as his many, many other Cadets. In addition I can also highly recommend an article by Frank de Haas describing his experiences with the various Zippers and their handloading results.

I found all of the above info to be mutually agreeable and mutually supportive, FWIW. The de Haas article makes clear the early extraction difficulty encountered with standard-shape-Zipper loads exceeding ~40K, and experience with the Cadet shows that loads above that level will require striker bushing. Also, loads above ~45K can possibly bulge the chamber due to the relatively thin walls in the thread tenon when used with the 30-30 case head.

So, taking all this into account, I'm finding that we have a choice between standard Zipper shape and 40K loads (due to shoulder shape), or the AI shape and 45K loads (due to case-head OD). IMO this info translates logically into my initial opinion favoring the AI version when considering the 25-35.

George had to trim the block's loading trough wider to accommodate the 25-35AI rim but this removal can be minimized by polishing an upside-down feed ramp into the top of the chamber's entrance to allow the AI case to begin turning the corner earlier. Can also be minimized by using the 225 case as the parent instead of the others with their thicker rims, but this can get tricky depending upon the owner's concept of headspace and how to obtain it safely (grin).

So, basically I choose to get an extra ~400fps by using the AI chambering whenever possible in the Cadet. By staying within the ~45K limit, my loads remain safe and also remain EASY TO EXTRACT compared to standard-case-shape loads exceeding ~40K which tend to stick in the Cadet due to its weak extraction leverage.

One of George's favorite loads sends the 75-gr bullet out at 3000fps, and he's saying that he's "not gonna push it". Pretty sporty, I'd say! BTW don't use the 225 Win in the Cadet, chances are that you'll bulge the chamber.

Sorry to be so long-winded but this can be a complicated subject! And always remember that my opinion is worth exactly what you paid.....
Regards, Joe

I wrote about this in another thread, but I built a 25-35 on a FBW action which is a duplicate sizewise to the Cadet, although the steel is more modern. It has the same 0.75" barrel shank. I found that some extra barrel makes a real difference. I started with a 31" blank and ended up at nearly 29". With the new LeverRevolution powder, I can get around 3300 fps with an 87 gr and around 3050 with a 100 gr bullet. These are modern premium bullets, so performance on game should be great. Per the loading manual, these should be in the 40K range pressure wise. Overloads are impossible, since you have to load the case full and compress to get it in.

The action seller recommends against AI forms for this size case. With the performance I am getting, I don't really see a need. Bottom line is that the standard 25-35 will fit a lot easier in a Cadet than an AI, and performance with a 28" barrel will be eye-opening.