Never had a break action single, but I am in the middle of building one and am at a point where I need to make a desicion....ejector or just an extractor...

Any of you have ejector guns and not like that feature? I don't reload, but don't care to leave my brass in the field either.

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
Never had a break action single, but I am in the middle of building one and am at a point where I need to make a desicion....ejector or just an extractor...

Any of you have ejector guns and not like that feature? I don't reload, but don't care to leave my brass in the field either.

Extractors (almost) never fail. Ejectors can. I've disabled a number of ejectors for some of my sporting clays shooting customers because they got tired of having them repaired.
That said, it's a preference thing. I've always preferred extractors on break open guns. What are you building?

I have both on current guns, and don't believe either is inherently better than the other. Which I prefer depends on what I am doing with the rifle at the time. Both have advantages and disadvantages, For instance:

- Stealth- Generally, an extractor is quieter than an ejector...no spring "twang", no "slap" as the ejector hits the end of its travel, and no "ping" as the falling brass hits the only rock within three miles.

Ease of firearm manipulation - Again generally, an ejector gun is going to be either harder to open or harder to close, maybe a little of both, depending on how and when you have to compress the ejector spring(s). With extractors there is no heavy spring needed to throw the cases(s) clear, so you never need to compress one.

Simplicity - Murphy was the world's first gun designer, and therefore the originator of the term K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Son). Ejector mechanisms, being more complex are often both heavier and provide more opportunity for something to go wrong in the field.

Speed - If you are hunting "bite-backs" where your life might depend even just once on how quickly you can open, reload, and close the rifle, the ejector probably wins hands down...so long as it actually works.

Type of cartridge - It is easier to make an extractor work reliably with rimless cartridges ,than an ejector. (But then personally, I don't like rimless cartridges in ANY single shot or double that uses either a break action or a falling, rolling, or tipping breech block.)

Brass retention- It doesn't matter whether a person reloads or not, if they don't want their brass scattrered around the field, then they might well prefer extractors. And, some day we all may HAVE to reload our own cartridges to get even makeshift ammo...there's no predicting the future.

Not much help, was it? Guess why I have both...can't make up my mind either

I am not so much worried about reliability so much as likes or dislikes of an ejector in a rifle. I will be designing in a southgate ejector, which is so similar to a slip joint knife mechanism,( of which I have made hundreds of...literaly) I know I can make it work. Also, I use modern steels for springs, and they are almost indestructable.

I wouldn't have a shotgun without ejectors simply based on the volume of fast dove shooting I get to do here in Texas. A rifle is another situation.

I might start off with an extractor, but leave the design features in to simply add the ejector components later.

Bryhaven,

I am building a small frame round action with the lockwork similar to the Scotish guns. It is my own design ( it's been 5 yrs in the making). I have all the major components made and fit together. I will make two barrels for it, the first in .204 ruger, and if all goes well I will make the second in 6mm Rem. or something slightly larger.

Where in FL. are you? I used to live in Jacksonville.

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:

I might start off with an extractor, but leave the design features in to simply add the ejector components later.

If that is your preference, then I would recommend building it with an ejector to start with. Then you can just remove the spring if you want to use it as an extractor only.

I’ll answer your question directly.

In a hunting rifle I want an ejecting action. In a target rifle I don’t mind an ejecting action but would prefer an extractor.

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
Bryhaven,

I am building a small frame round action with the lockwork similar to the Scotish guns. It is my own design ( it's been 5 yrs in the making). I have all the major components made and fit together. I will make two barrels for it, the first in .204 ruger, and if all goes well I will make the second in 6mm Rem. or something slightly larger.

Where in FL. are you? I used to live in Jacksonville.

Sounds like an interesting rifle. Hope you keep us posted on it. Are you building the barrels (from scratch) or doing a monobloc design & using rifled blanks? welding lugs on? I'm @ 70 miles west of Jax.

I am not making the barrels. I will probably go with Shillen as they are close, and can thread and prechamber them for me. I am using monoblocks.

I will post pictures of what I have done so far in the next couple of days.

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
I am not making the barrels. I will probably go with Shillen as they are close, and can thread and prechamber them for me. I am using monoblocks.

I will post pictures of what I have done so far in the next couple of days.

Look forward to seeing them. You can't go wrong with Shilen barrels. I've been using them almost exclusively for many years except when a customer insisted on some other maker. Never had a bad one.

While I am thinking about it, the two calibers I have intended to use are not rimmed. ( 6mm Rem and .204 Ruger). Is there a hassle in making the extractor work on non-rimmed cartriges?

My opinion is that rimmed cartridges are easier to make work well with either extractors or ejectors.

The main reason is that with rimmed cartridges, all the extractor or ejector needs to do, basically, is reciprocate forward (on loading the unfired round) and back (on unloading the fired case).

With a rimless cartridge, the extractor and ejector have to allow the loaded round body to pass the "claw", and then "press" or" pop" the claw into the extractor groove of the case. (And reliably hold it there until the case is removed from the chamber at least partially).

That usually means the extractor or ejector must not only reciprocate forward and back, but must SIMULTANEOUSLY move sideways into the extraction groove. That sideways movement seems to be usually done with spring pressure, though it can also be done mechanically if one is skilled enough.

Either way, if I was building a gun which didn't require a "stack" of cartridges in a magazine, I'd go with a rimmed version of any cartridge I wanted to use. Easier, simpler, and more reliable in my non-too-expert opinion.

Although not a break action, I did speak with Mr.Hagn about his falling block and the issue of extractor/ejector.
He stated about 90% of his single shot customers choose the extractor system.
His automatic ejector system shoots the empty case about 10 feet back,dont really need that myself either.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
Although not a break action, I did speak with Mr.Hagn about his falling block and the issue of extractor/ejector.
He stated about 90% of his single shot customers choose the extractor system.
His automatic ejector system shoots the empty case about 10 feet back,dont really need that myself either.

That's one of the nice things about the #1 ejector. Being able to adjust it to very light case "flinging" ).

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
While I am thinking about it, the two calibers I have intended to use are not rimmed. ( 6mm Rem and .204 Ruger). Is there a hassle in making the extractor work on non-rimmed cartriges?

I've always preferred rimmed cartridges in single shots, whether falling block or break open. Shouldn't be a problem making a rimmed 6mm by just necking down 7x57R brass. You could just turn the rim recess in the lathe. As for the 204... that may take more thought to make a rimmed version )

Well, I am not set on one calibre, just want something that will allow me to prove my action and not be rare as hens teeth. I have had a couple of friends suggest looking into the 7X57r. Since it is rimmed, that would solve the extractor issue. How is the recoil on this one?

is there another rimmed cartridge that is avaiable over the counter that is on the smaller side? I will be hunting deer and ferral hogs more than anything, and not at extreme ranges so super high velocity isn't a major concern either.

7X57R = 7X57 But I doubt that you would find over the counter ammo for it in most places... www.huntingtons.com/cases_norma.html has 7X57R cases...Other than the 30-30 there is'nt much small bore over the counter ammo...If you reload I would consider the following rimmmed cases and wilcats based on them..
.225 Win
30-30
30-40Krag
.357 Max.
Check out the Contender/Encore specialty barrel companies...they work with rimmed cases..
Check the Single Shot Pistol forum here at AR...
Another www.specialtypistols.infopop.cc/eve
Looking forward to seeing the pictures of your project...
cheers

Am not certain, but think some stores may still carry 7 m/m Waters, as well?

Plus, the .220 Swift, though called a "semi-rimmed" cartridge, is actually a "small-rimmed" cartridge in practical terms.

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
Well, I am not set on one calibre, just want something that will allow me to prove my action and not be rare as hens teeth. I have had a couple of friends suggest looking into the 7X57r. Since it is rimmed, that would solve the extractor issue. How is the recoil on this one?

is there another rimmed cartridge that is avaiable over the counter that is on the smaller side? I will be hunting deer and ferral hogs more than anything, and not at extreme ranges so super high velocity isn't a major concern either.

I absolutely love the 30/30 ackley improved. I've re-chambered dozens of rifles for it including some break opens. I built up a #1 for it last year with a tapered oct barrel that is now my std when I hunt with a modern rifle. I've even relined a few old drillings (11mm) with it over the years.
I load 125 gr bullets to @ 2750 FPS with it. Very accurate, low recoil & muzzle blast. Brass is everywhere. Very efficient caliber.
That would be my vote

Here are a couple of images of my action. I have since added the top lever and locking slide bar. I will keep adding photos as I progress.

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:


Here are a couple of images of my action. I have since added the top lever and locking slide bar. I will keep adding photos as I progress.

Looks great Bailey! What kind of lockup are you using?

Here are a few more. You can see the lock slide in the bar channel. The last pic is of the trigger plate fit into the bottom of the receiver. Pretty pleased



<A HREF="http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u202/baileybradshaw/DSC01397.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u202/baileybradshaw/DSC01397.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u202/baileybradshaw/DSC01395.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u202/baileybradshaw/DSC01394.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u202/baileybradshaw/DSC01399.jpg

Looks like a good start. Leave it in block form and you could most likely chamber it in anything. Right now it looks extremely stout.

Keep us posted as you trim it down for shaping and weight. Looks well thought out and tight. Watch the fingers while its sharp or you might loose a chunk of one to this bad boy. Looking forward to seeing it as it progresses.

Well, I hope my layout works. It has certainly evolved from my first sketch over 5 years ago. Everytime I learned something new about the iner workings of a break action, I would implement the feature into the design.

As for it's strength...I really don't know what it could handle yet. I would like to go up to 30-06 or possibly .338 Federal( providing I can make an extractor work for a rimless case). My plan is to add barrels of increasing calibre. I certainly think the frame is strong enough, just want to make sure the other parts are too. Everything is based on dimensions from proven guns, like A.H. Fox shotguns, Merkel K-1, a David McKay Brown round action I got to handle, plus several other less expensive guns. The wrist pin, overal frame size and lock parts are scaled off of these measurments.

It will end up as a rounded action with octagonal barrel in a light sporter contour. Not sure yet, but am leaning towards either a straight English stock or a mild kaiser grip similar to what Peter Hofer makes. A schnabel forend useing a deeley latch.

At first I wanted to mount a scope, but just hate the look right now, so I will keep the capability to mount one later. For now though, open sights. I live in East Texas where the piney woods are pretty dense, so a long range shot isn't the norm.

The lock parts are next...will post more pics when they are made.

the important thing, since quality seems to be there...how many yankee $$$ are you going to have to have for one?

Rich
DRSS

Rich,

Not really sure just yet. I want to get this one barreled and stocked so I can shoot the hoot out of it and make sure my design has no rats or roaches. I do know it will be priced similar to many of the high quality falling block actions on the market....I will even try to get a little under them if I can.

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
Rich,

Not really sure just yet. I want to get this one barreled and stocked so I can shoot the hoot out of it and make sure my design has no rats or roaches. I do know it will be priced similar to many of the high quality falling block actions on the market....I will even try to get a little under them if I can.

Just don't forget to add on enough bucks to cover federal manufacturer's FFL, excise tax, time spent arranging with BATF for things like approved serial numbering, replacement costs on tooling and machines, annual accounting cost for tax return, etc., etc. There's a reason a lot of the small manufacturer's in the past only made a few and then moved on.....

Yeah....I know there are a lot of costs involved with manufacturing firearms other than simply making the product. I've been self employed as a Bladesmith for ten years now. While the Federal govmt doesn't lean on knives like they do guns, the costs inevitably get covered by the customer.

We may be getting the horse ahead of the cart here anyway. I don't even have a working action yet.....but the chips keep flying!!

Bailey,
talk to Butch Searcy first. He can guide you thru the minefield.

Rich
DRSS

I want extractors on a double as it breaks open and the weight of the barrels will open it when you flip the lever, and ejector gun is hard to open.

On a single shot I would want ejectors, but it would probably be a falling block action. on a break open single shot either would satisfy me.

It's a personal thing, more than anything else. Get what you like, not what someone else likes.

quote:

is there another rimmed cartridge that is avaiable over the counter that is on the smaller side?

have you considered the 5.6x52R(also known as .22 Savage High-Power).
it`s a quite popular small-game cartridge for combination/single shot guns here in europe.

it shoots a 70grain bullet at 2800+fps.
but i don`t know how popular it is in america

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:
. As for the 204... that may take more thought to make a rimmed version )

Probably not. I haven't seen the 204 drawings but if it accurately follows the 222rem mag then to make 204 rimmed simply neck down 5.6x50R mag to 204 and trim.

Been absent for a bit. My wife and I had a baby girl in February, so I had to put the action aside for a bit to catch up on bills. The repreave allowed me to do clear my head of all the calibre confusion and other issues.

I will go ahead and chamber it for 7x57R and use and extractor. A close friend is building a double on an LC Smith action and will use the same calibre. I figured it would be cheaper toshare the tooling and trade notes on loads and such.

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
Been absent for a bit. My wife and I had a baby girl in February, so I had to put the action aside for a bit to catch up on bills. The repreave allowed me to do clear my head of all the calibre confusion and other issues.

I will go ahead and chamber it for 7x57R and use and extractor. A close friend is building a double on an LC Smith action and will use the same calibre. I figured it would be cheaper toshare the tooling and trade notes on loads and such.

You can't go wrong with that cal. & congrats on the new arrival!

couple of comments

heym made some double rifles with ejectors.... that you could push a little lever and disable the ejector so it functioned like an extractor.

this would give you the best of both worlds.

your friends use of an lc smith for a double rifle isn't a very good one.

check out the underlugs on the smith....

HOWDY!! I finally got a little time to work on this one again. My wife and I had a baby last february, and I had 60+ acres clear cut. Lots of time on a bull dozer pushing brush, changing diapers and trying to work enough to pay for it all.

Anyway, I have the cocking mechanism in place, the hammer and main spring strut. I was concerned as to how much reverse pressure would bear against the forend iron from the main spring. Turns out not much, and I can go with a stronger main spring than what I have in place now. The cocking mechanism is a pushrod that impacts a rotating "shoe". I am sure most of you know what I have
here.



One with the action cocked



A little closer



And with the action uncocked.


The firing pin is the next hurdle. The top level stem will either be split to allow the pin to go through it, or the center of the pin will be oversized and the top lever stem with go through it. I am leaning towards the latter as it will allow me to bush the pin a little easier. Any thoughts?

I have decided to just go with an extractor on this one BTW.

I have done a lot more work on this thing. I changed the main spring to a "V" spring that works on the hammer and sear. I have all of the trigger group installed and working. I also installed the firing pin and striker disk. The hammer hits plenty hard, so I may lighten the main spring a little. Trigger is crisp, but just a touch too hard. I also remade the forend iron and milled a dummy octagon barrel that has the same dimensions the real barrel will have so i could fit the forend and make the cocking shoe to fit.

I will shoot a few more pics tonight.

In the mean time, my stock blank will be here Tuesday!! Let me know what you think of it...good or bad.

here are a few pics of the action showing the lockwork and disked striker.







The safety works great, no trigger movement at all when it is enguaged. The phillips head screws on the spring struts will be replaced. I just haven't made the appropriate screws yet.

I also need to taper the action tang and bevel the edges for the stock, so the sides of the tang are not finished yet. Obviously the action body needs shaping as well to make it a semi round shape.

Feel free to post comments or ask questions. At this point I am not going into business with these, so if there are any brave souls wanting to try to make their own.....

If you make it half as good as you make your knives, then it will be a superb rifle.

Since you asked about the wood, I'll give you my non-professional opinion. I don't particularly like the grain flow thru the wrist, it isn't terrible but it isn't really good either. If you're going to make a trim stock (and, of course, nice singles call for a nicely proportioned thinner stock IMO) then you're going to have a weaker spot on the wrist than I would like. It will likely work, but it sure is disappointing when you go to all the trouble of making a stock and it cracks or breaks.

Second, and this is even more or a personal opinion than anything else, I am not fond of what I call "muddy" figure as shown on the left side of your blank. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't like that stick of wood much and I think your rifle deserves better.

I certainly enjoy watching your project here Bailey!...Rifle building must run in knife makers blood as I have a friend knife maker who also built a falling block action rifle (mostly of his own design) from scratch in the winter of 2006....the only power tools he used where a drill press, cut-off saw and angle grinder...
I am looking forward to more photos of your project as you move toward completion....