Here some test bits from my 50-90, 34", 12# Sharps. I put a leather lace on recoil pad on it so now that curved steel buttplate doesn't EVEN play.

Max pressure limit 29KSPI...all loads were below this limit and developed with QL and various commercial publications...

BULLETS: Beartooth 590gr WFN plain based cast lead with section in front of crimp groove turned to 0.495" to ride bore and be able to crimp in the groove at ~3.015" COAL, actual weight 575gr....BT 475gr WFNGC crimped in groove at ~2.985"...Cast Perf 525gr WFNGC crimped in groove at ~2.94".

POWDERS: AA2495 Best according to QL, AA4350, AA5744 recommended by several manuals.

CASES: Jamison trimmed to 2.475" - 2.490"

Limited Beta Chrony testing just to get a velocity range...1 round/2 gr charge increase.

475 gr...AA2495, 70-78gr, 1834 to 2107fs/23346PSI/89% fill/4760ftlbs, closely matched QL predictions...~10-50fs variation per round. Hope this one shoots straight and groups well.

475 gr...AA4350, 82 & 84 gr, powder ~30 years old and tested 100fs plus below QL - ~1707 fs actual 1882 fs QT predicted, 86 gr hit 100% fill. OK for lower pressure/low velo 100% fill load and would do better with newer powder.

525 gr...AA2495, 66-74gr, 1791fs - 2008fs/26635PSI/93%FILL/4931ftlbs, ~50fs below QT prediction...76 gr would put the pressure 29276PSI, just slightly over the limit. Another nice load hopeful.

590 gr(575gr actual)...AA2495, 64-72gr, 1791fs-1908fs/89% fill, again ~50fs below QT prediction but many reasons for that...I will test over my Oehler 33 someday maybe...not all that important anyway.

590 gr...AA5744, 34, 38, 40, 4 gr increments, 1282fs, 1400fs, 1477fs...40 gr is over recommended loads but was well below pressure limits for this rifle. I'm not comfortable with such low volume loads even though AA5477 has proven itself, but it might work well for the longer/heavier Postell type bullets that seat much deaper in the case. Time will tell.

A few more bits concerning the 590 BT plain base and AA5744...BOTH AA 2495 and AA5744 left unburned powder granuals in the bore. I tried two 1/2" fiber wads with 38gr AA5477 in two rounds and got a lead wash on the first 1/4-3/8" of the fired case, plus an increase in velocity of ~50 fs at 1457 and 1459fs...NO LEAD WASH without the wad and NO LEAD WASH with just a 1/8" felt(no chrono), and no lead wash with the other loads...seems like the hard fiber wad some how CAUSED the leading phenomenon.

ALL the cases fired during this testing had powder marks on the front of the cases just like most of my other rifles/pistols...the lower pressure loads had more "powderpuffs" and it went farther down the case than in the higher pressure loads.

So far I've fired 40 shots..."fireformed" 20 cases, and additional second firing of 5 cases and I used 2 cases to do the rest of the testing to see just how many firings a case will stand...this chamber is VERY generous in size at the front...fired cases measure 0.542" and size to 0.524" then expand to 0.532", neck walls run 0.085" to 0.010".

Winter is setting in, Christmas is comming, more than normal snow is expected this winter so I won't do much more other than install a "period" 6x scope...I can't hardly see the iron sights. I want to try some paper patched bullets and some of the heavier Postell types...this rifle has a 1-22 T so it will handle bullets to about 2.0" at the velo limit. I will lay in some bullet stock for next year spring and use up the plain based stuff on rabid pine cones.

There are really quite a few smokeless mid burn rate powders that will work well in this case with bullets from 400 to 600 gr with fill rates from 75 to 100% and velos from 1500 to 2400fs in the long barreled shooters...pity is seems to be locked into the BP and/or low velo end. This rifle is balanced and weighted so well it is a joy to shoot even at the high end of the recoil range.

Hey FOOBAR

Jeffsoutfitters.com has the pistol grip stock you need. They even sell a little rubber bumper for you to fix to your trigger guard to save from getting your fingers bashed.
Thier prices ar very good.

If I ever build the Martini I want in 10.3x60R I'll give you a run for your money.

Cheers, John

Already checked into the pistol gripped stocks...no simple/cheap way to do it as far as several Sharps people said...have to replace the straight trigger carrier with the curved one and the top tang groove in the OEM stock custom cut to fit. By the time that's accomplished I can almost buy a new repro pistol grip rifle.

Those little "squawtits" looked interesting and I cadged a drawing for one so I can make one.

So far I've only been whacked one time hard enough to notice and that was with a topend 575gr load before I put the recoil pad on. I was wearing gloves also. I tried the same load yesterday with the recoil pad on without getting slammed. That pad is only 1/2" thick but it makes all the difference in the world.

Naw, Man...that puny Swiss thing is only .415 cal...ya gotta feed it more grits and grow it up a bit before you can catch me...

I've read a bit about that cartridge...sounds like something VERY interesting and fun to do if you have a Martini action and/or one of the new falling block actions also. Kindofa weird looking case, but no more so than the Bullards and Peabody's, I guess...at least the brass is available.

To many toys...not enough time or money.

I keep buying my Lotto tickets...maybe someday...

I think this 50-90 Sharps is a redheaded boostid step child...no one wants it in smokeless and few want it in BP...it HURTS ME. Hahahahahahah

Luck

Ya, I'd like to have a Martini Stalking rifle in a large enough caliber for anything in America but flat shooting enough for 300 yards.
I also like my paper patch cast bullets a lot.
So far, finding cases or even loaded ammo is easy compared to finding a reamer.
That's alright, no hurry.

Your having a good time!!!

Cheers, John

Pacific Tool and Die should be able to grind you one easy enough...Dave Mason also.

I have 625gr PP, 650 PB and some "light" 525gr Postells on my list...might just try some 700 gr PB also.

My 1000 yd range will soon be 6-10 ft deep in snow and my 100 m range 3-4'...expecting a couple inches tonight. I'm NEVER ready for winter.

I was checking prices for Martini rifle/actions today...$400-600 for rusty stuff from India seemed a bit steep, I can pick up a nice R#1 for that and rebore it for another $250...think I might just think about it for a while longer.

Luck

[quote]I think this 50-90 Sharps is a redheaded boostid step child...no one wants it in smokeless and few want it in BP...it HURTS ME. Hahahahahahah

Foobar,
That caliber was never some redheaded stepchild. It was Sharp's #1 hunting caliber for over 10 years. Known as Sharp's "Big Fifty" And has a documented kill on a Kiowa Indian Medicine Man at some 1700 yds. Battle of Adobe Wells, Texas. But, the caliber was shot completly different then what you are trying to do now. The orginal rifles had a different twist rate and shot lighter bullets at about 1300 fps. But were very effective on Buffalo nothing was better until the 45-110 came along.
And just for info, the most popular caliber for the Buffalo Runners was the 50-70 and the 44-77.
Aaron

Yeah, Aaron...Billy Dixon set some kind of record back then...the reference was to the limited interest I see generated for such an excellent cartridge...no diss or flame intended to the cartridge...

The actual meaning of words NEVER gets fully conveyed on the internet, one of it's main problems...two dimentional words are poor substitutes for face to face 3 dimentional conversation. I know what this caliber will do, and it's not my only 50 cal...that's why I bought the 50-90 instead of another 45-120 or one of the smaller cased "big Fifty's".

I worked fairly hard for several months searching and researching, trying to attain satisfaction in this endeavor.

I even have delusions of grandeur...
rechambering to 50-140 so I can seat the longer bullets below the lube grooves...to keep the chamber cleaner and to get a bit more velocity at the 29KPSI pressure limit. Probably won't happen, but it still opens up new avenues of thought.

The "Billy Dixon" model was vying for honors while I was mulling over how much I could spend..."Billy Dixon" or "Quigley"..."Quigly" won out because of availability and barrel length...one of those "take me now or forever loose me"...because you might be dead before the rifle even gets here".

As it was...this "Quigly" was the ONLY 50-90 coming into the US from ANY of the repro producers, according to Buffalo Arms and they had to do some fancy footwork to get that rifle locked in and it took slightly over 2 weeks to get that to happen...at least at the barrel length and price I could afford.

Pedersoli had their Long Range "Creedmore" style...at a grand more money, but I couldn't find any of those available at the time I started searching.

All the US Sharps makers could build me a 50-90, at 3-5 times the cost plus a few years wait...so I made a choice...I'm happy.

Now if I could hit the Lotto and have Turnbull do me a matching 50-90/110 levergun, I would be a very happy shooter.

This 1874 rifle is nostalgic at different levels to different people...I don't mind talking about loads, BP or otherwise, sharing what I come up with, until things get heated up...with ANY rifle/cartridge I have...when the conversation gets to a certain point, it means the mind has closed and anything more is a waste of time and breath.

No one is particularly right or wrong, we just have our own prejustices and biases...I think EVERYONE should enjoy what THEY like and let others enjoy THEIR likes...no use fussing over small things...in the history of man we just keep killing each other over minutia and never learn..."might makes right", so to speak.

I have set aside 5 cases for BP just in case I decide to play in the black some time...I also have 2 BP muzzle loaders, 50 and 54 cal and a 45 cal BP pistol...they get used several times a year and the same goes for my 45-120...5 cases for BP, the rest for smokeless...so I'm not anti-BP in any way...I just would rather shoot smokeless in cartridge cases.

Luck

If I won the Lotto...hmmmmm

I think my stalking rifle would no longer say Martini on it. I think it will say Wesley Richards.

Cheers, John

Phatman:
You mean something like this Martini in .577 BPE?

Yeah..."Too many toys, not enough time, not enough money".

Give me your address, Bill...and when you go on vacation...I need a midnight resupply ...

NICE toy!!!!!! You must have a population of T-REXRATZ over your way also.

Luck

Bill,
I have to tell ya, If I was of the size matters mind then I would just have to go that way.
Frankly, I didn't think it would fit.
Is there any metal left in that barrel were its threaded into the reciever?
Gotta be getting thin.
Is this monster yours?

FOOBAR
How much pressure do you think a Martini in 577 can take? 25K psi would be a lot with a chunk of lead that big.

Alright damn it, now I want one.

Cheers, John

Foobar
Who is the maker of the lace on butt pad?
Also which size?

I need one of those to complete a Pedersoli.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Phatman:
You mean something like this Martini in .577 BPE?

[/QUOTE

Bill,
Isn't that the type of rifles and caliber that the British used back during the Zulu Wars and in India? I would like to find more info on other countries single shot rifles that were in use at the time of the Sharps. Especially in Africa.
Anymore info on that type of rifle?

Aaron

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
If I won the Lotto...hmmmmm

I think my stalking rifle would no longer say Martini on it. I think it will say Wesley Richards.

Cheers, John

Phatman,
What is a stalking rifle? I looked the term up on Google and it can anything from a muzzleloader to a very highly engraved German Single Shot. So what is it?

Aaron

Pad is from Buffalo Arms...Action Arms brand...I have several...3 sizes, just have to measure the lengh and width of the butt...all the information and fitting sizes are on the order end...The one for my 1874 was the smallest... slightly over 5" long by ~1.25" wide I think.

Hummmm...pressure?? Not real sure...just have to check out the 577 BPE forums...basically it's a lower pressure BP cartridge all dressed up in modern geegaws...I would rather have a R#1 that I KNOW uses modern steels...

I might think my 50-90 will handle more pressure than what it's pressure tested to, but I WON'T exceed that limit...it's just not worth it. Besides I have some 720 gr, 50 cal bullets I can get moving fast enough that I can't handle the recoil of...so "what's the point"?

I have no idea at this point just what the OEM Martini was pressure rated at and haven't studied that action enough to know just how much the receiver/bolt will handle or where the weak points are, but I do know that with the amount of lead it slings, 750 - 1000 gr, very few will get too high in the velocity range.

QL lists slightly over 35KPSI for 577 NE cartridge.

The 577 NE is the modern smokeless version in 2.75, 3 and 3.25" lengths...750 gr at ~1800-2100fs and up around ~35KPSI. Rolling blocks have been chambered for this cartridge. I did find some loads running ~25kPSI, 750 gr at a bit over 1850fs...I'm guessing recoil could be a bit daunting depending on the rifle weight.

Wonder if a 3" 20ga shotgun case would work?...you could then turn it into a 615 Hellboy and have an even BIGGER tosser.


Ed Hubel and Bill know for sure, and probably several others on the Double Rifle link and some data on the web.

Luck

Aaron,
Good Day to Ya,

A Stalking rifle is a light for caliber single shot rifle that is built a bit fancy for the job.
A Ruger No.1 in the best American example made today.

FOOBAR,
I did a little search and found that Ed Hubel took a 12ga Martini upto 23K psi with no ill effects. I'd say that was a strong test for the action.

Cheers, John

From what I can see in diagrams, using modern 4140 barrel steel with a 1.125" OD, plus a modern 577 NE case would leave ~0.232" chamber wall...roughly speaking...I would like to have some definitive data from someone who is playing with one.

I imagine the breech block would handle the pressure thrust of such a large case "Buttend". The barrel would handle the Hoop Stress quite well. Somewhere I came across a post that gave QL data for the 577/450 Martini-Henry case at just over 20KPSI.

I think you might have to look at it like Browning and their aluminum framed rifles...the frame is just to hold the barrel in line and a place to hang a scope...all the strength is in the barrel steel and the bolt locking lugs.

23KPSI with a large OD 12 ga case and relatively weak plastic should translate into a bit more safe pressure with the slightly smaller and stronger case.

No matter what...the Martini is classic in look and will make a beautiful rifle.

Going the other way...all the small caliber Martini Cadets I've seen at gunshows or online made me wish...but I could never even afford to walk by them much less look hard.

Bills shooter looks like it would be a nice stalking rifle for certain.


Luck

A lot of the little Martinis were rebarreled to 222 Rimmed, 218 Bee, and the pressures were well into the 50 plus range. Same as the 222 Remington with no problems. With the solid lock up on the Martini action I don't see that as a problem.

The big lever guns from Win and Marlin all have less barrel dia then the Martini. And it's a stronger action.

Aaron

You're absolutely right Aaron...problems arise when using old actions that were built with different manufacturing methods as far as the ALL the steels in the rifle are concerned or receivers that could have weak points or fractures. The action can/should be magnafluxed or x-rayed but how many do that?.

One weak points I can see is the hinge point for the breech bolt....the pin itself is split in some drawings I've viewed and there isn't a whole lot of meat in the pin bosses.

Some of the actions had side plates added to strengthen the oldest actions, some had the action squared off at the back..."Humped" so to speak, and lengthened a bit and a LOT of interal changes/additons as part of the updating process. If I were doing a conversion I would certainly want to use one of the last versions with all the mods and revisions.

The area of the base of the case itself is ~0.345" sq which transmits ~8500 ft lbs to the breech bolt at 25KPSI chamber pressure. You get somewhere around ~5500-5600 ftlbs thrust with the .378 size case at ~50KPSI...plus a lot more wall thickness in the chamber area and even then there is some conjecture as to the actual strength and usability of the Cadet...

Falling blocks are very strong actions and the weakest point is usually the firing pin hole size and the transefer bar in the 1874...the problems of vented gas and where it goes rears it's ugly head there.

The Martini actions have proven themselves over time for use with many cartridges. Most of the problem areas were solved by the time the last mods were done, but by that time other carttidges and bolt actions had arrived and took over. The only problems I see is no modern pressure limit tests...or none that I can find.

I wouldn't have any knee shaking nervousness using a large receiver whose major pieces and parts had been magnafluxed, die penetrant or x-rayed to exclude cracks at the wrong places...using BP OR smokless.

Anyway...I will continue to gather information and watch prices in the off chance I might get another wild hair...or Lady Luck smiles on me and I hit the Lotto... ...I will need that windfall to afford the price of cases and dies anyway...

Luck

Holy Big Bores,

Guys did you check out the last page of Ed Hubels 12 ga from hell thread?
There is a pic of a 600 African cartridge. Its a 12ga, brass shell necked down to 600 cal. Looks like the worlds biggest short magnum.

Man I dont think these old bones can handle that much recoil but I would love to have a go at it.

Cheers, John

Oh, YEAH...been following that thread since for 2-3 years...just HAD to build me a 12GaFH to boot a couple years ago. Wanted to build a 615 Hellboy(20 ga) but other things keep jumping the que.

I've tried slugs up to 1500 gr in it, basically about the same as a 3 - 3 1/2 oz 10 ga shotgun heavy load, but I just couldn't hold on to the NEF even with a thumbhole stock and extra weight with anything beyond that...the 750 to 900 gr loads were much more usable...for me at least.

I think that 600 African might be an excellent, fairly inexpensive way to go to get you a BIG Whacker at least with the NEF platform...nothing but a rechamber and dies...brass being available from Magtech, Rob, or RMC...OR?? At the low pressures you probably don't need a FL die...only something to squish the neck down a bit if you use 50 BMG or RMC brass...that's all I did and never had a problem.

I thought the 600 OK was bad enough. I drew up a few designs using the full length 50 BMG case necked to 60 cal, plus looked at the NEF 20 Ga Ultra hunter for the barrel, but without the shekels that's all I did...look. My ideas were probably just echoes of alreadybendone ideas that escaped into the ether from Ed and Rob.

Think about it...a semi auto or pump 600 African shotgun...


Now you gone and done it...this 1874 was to be my LAST toy, I even tossed my todo list...now I won't sleep well until I do one of these 600 Africans...

At least my Lotto ticket paid 3 bucks this time.

Luck

quote:

this 1874 was to be my LAST toy

I said same, befor three or four years, as I bought my Pedersoli Sharps. But a #1, a Mauser Brasil and a H&K PSP followed in the last years.
And I´m doing same with buying lotto tickets. Every week, so I will loose 5-6 bucks.


Martin

Every winter when the snows come and the sun goes and cabin fever takes over, I swear NOMO'...then spring comes, the snow goes, the sun shines and I can get into my shop, I forget what I said last year. Hahahahahah...I did 4 rifles last year, but only 3 count as I sent one barrel back...two were switch barrels so the only count for half a rifle.

I tried again to talk myself into a 60 cal after seeing that 600 African, but today after going through the evaluation process for the 14th time, checking out prices etc, I came to the same conclusion I did last year...way too much cost for what I end up with...my 12GaFH will do everything the .620 will do PLUS the 12Ga is ~28% larger and I can shoot 500-1500gr slugs and several very nice saboted rounds.

Another "problem" is you can get just about the same performance out of 3.5" 20ga brass with a lot less powder therefore less recoil in several single and double barreled shotguns...and those cases are $85/10 plus shipping at RMC.

The 600 African is still be very cool looking case. Be just right for a lever action 1887 Win, so doing one will never be out of my mind.

Luck

FOOBAR,
The Cartoon size cases of the 600 African would look so cool ejecting out of a pump.
If you ever had a need for getting attention, then firing that monster up at the range would damn sure get it.....LOL

Cheers, John

Guys. I got that project Martini from CongoMike here on the forum, but ended up sending on to a real Martini fancier in Cut Bank, Montana. Only shot it a couple of times with Woodleigh softs and a case full of FFg. Fun!

Double D, are you out there? What's the status of the Samuel Baker special?

That's definitely true, John...not many people have seen a brass case coming out of a 12 ga in ANY platform and many fewer a bottlenecked variety...I get ENOUGH attention when I crank off a 12GaFH at the range, people hear and see the noise and recoil, then see that HUGE brass case pop out...you can guess what the comments are.

I get some very strange looks when I show a loaded round and ask if anyone wants to try it. Hahahahahah NO TAKERS YET.

They all are surprized at the rifle's weight AND that big ugly muzzle brake. It's functional to a lessor extent, but I made it, then painted it black, more for the visual impact...BIG case, BIG hole in the end of the barrel and BIG, BLACK MUZZLE BRAKE. Hahahahahah

Bill...Have you come across any pressure data for the Martini?

Luck

how powerful is the heaviest load you use for the 50-90 Sharps? i'm just curious as to how powerful this cartridge is when loaded to the max because i have a Winchester 1885 in 50-90 Sharps.