How strong is an original '85 Winchester? Someone years ago relined the barrel to a high velocity varmint cartridge and drilled the barrel full of holes.

I'm having it rebarreled to it's original 45-70 chambering. The gunsmith that's doing the work said it was in great shape for working on.

While I have no intentions of "making a Ruger #1 or even a 1895 Marlin" out of it, I was wondering what would be a suitable smokeless load for it in terms of pressure.

Thanks,

Joe A.

What are you hunting ? The standard loads as I understand are about 18,000 psi [300 @ 1850 fps ]They work very well for deer especially the Win Partition loading.SAAMI specs are about 27,000.The design is very strong though metals may have changed over the years .It was after all chambered for almost every cartridge and made from 1885 to 1935 !! It would certainly take SAAMI max probably more but 27,000 is very potent for hunting !...Happiness is a warm 45-70 !

considering the fact that it was chambered for the 30-03 and 30-06 and 7x57Mauser, I suspect the 60,000Psi range is tops, and 52-54K is appropriate.
Winchester also chambered them in the BP era for most of the british elephant cartridges thru the 500's.

Rich
DRSS

I have a Browning made model 1885 chambered in 22-250 Rem. It operates at 65, 000psi, so you know the John Browning action design is strong. Your 45-70 won't come near that. How much is due to modern metallurgy, I don't know. Your new barrel will be strong.

Thanks for the replies. The standard loads for the 300 and 405 grain bullets should be adequate for my purposes.

I was just wondering if there would be any concerns if I had to push it another 75-100fps in order to get better accuracy.

It's sort of a special rifle to me. A good shooting buddy with a terminal illness gave it to me. While setting around talking guns, we often would talk of rebarreling the old rifle.

The gunsmith, who is a well known smith and has done work for me before, said he would get it out for me as soon as the parts arrive. Usually, there's a long wait. So, maybe, my friend and I will get to try it out together.

Joe A.

The original High Wall will hold just about anything you can stuff into it, black powder or smokeless, immensely strong, even the thin wall casehardened actions. Almost impossible to blow up.

The force on the breech is the cartridge internal pressure time the inside cross sectional area of the cartridge minus the case to chamber wall friction and case stretch.

This means that if the action is chambered for .270 and that cartridge has an internal cross section of .4", then there is less than 65,000 x pi [.4/2]^2 = 8,168 pounds thrust.
If a 45/70 has an internal cross section of .43", then the maximum pressure calculated would be P = thrust / area = 8,168/ pi [.43/2]^2= 56,256 psi.

But I have shot a handi rifle in 45/70, and the 20,000 psi loads kicked me into next week.

Without knowing the history or heat treatment of your original action, it might be more prudent to err on side the of safety. Loads at or below 1886 levels might be best.

In his book on single shots, De Haas told of being criticized for "cutting up" old single shots to make varmint rifles. He went on to say that back then no one wanted them. You could buy a Winchester '85 in the walnut case with tools for $15.00! (Those were the days.) Or so. Bush the firing pin and rebarrel/rechamber and they were good for about anything the customer ordered and many became the premo varmint rifles of the day. .219 Wasp. .219 Zip' Imp. None of these were shy about high pressures.

b). The .45/70 is pretty much classed today in three levels. Trapdoor Springfield. Black powder. Limit around 15K LUP. 20K tops. I tried some of these smokeless loads with 500 grain bullets and they push you back HARD. After that I stayed with lighter bullets. #$2). Mid range. Marlin lever actions. Modern black powder copy single shots. Approx. .30/30 WCF levels. 35K-40K CUP. Some put the Siamese Mauser here. I don't agree but then I have one. #3). Ruger #1 (and old #3). No restrictions. 55K CUP. Just like a .308 or other modern cartridge. (No one seems to want to remember that this is where the .270 WCF started in the mid 1920s...)

POINT: Your limit is the brass. It is from the black powder days. It is not as strong, or thick, as more modern cartridges. You will not have great case life loading to 50K CUP whether the gun be .45/70 or Ruger #1. There is a load for Trapdoors with Herc' (now Alliant) #7 and a 300 grain bullet that gets 2200 fps. You need much more than this in North America and you better be able to run fast tooooooo.... luck

quote:

POINT: Your limit is the brass. It is from the black powder days. It is not as strong, or thick, as more modern cartridges.

With the 45-70 and "modern" loads the brass now made by Starline is hard to beat. It is designed for higher pressure loads and in fact the case mouths must be annealed if loaded to "original" pressures. In my Marlin i get over double the case life using Starline instead of Winchester.