I am looking at a Wincheter 1885 Highwall in .22-250 These are new production in Japan

Does any one have any experience with these rifles? I'm looking for thoughts on fit and finish, trigger quality/pull, any suggested modifications, ease of modifications, common problems.

It is $800 at a local store I have seen them on gunbrocker and guns america for 900-1200.

It would be a used as a non competitive paper puncher/ practice/varmint rifle.

I just purchased a 45/70 and have a 405 Winchester on the way in the winchester hi wall, they are beautiful guns, just starting to shoot the 45/70 hope to have good range report soon.

In general, the trigger sucks. There are two remedies from various folk but the latest rumor flying around the net today is that MVA (Montana Vintage Arms) will be may decide to make a drop-in single set trigger. MVA makes nothing less than first class plus, so such an innovation would definitely be the cat's meow.

Brent

Thanks for the thoughts,

Brent, is the trigger adjustable by a commitent smith or is it need to be replaced? With few options to replace it with?

Would a ruger #1 be a better option?

I like the looks of the 1885, with the Octagonal barrel and the 800 price is attractive VS a New ruger #1's price, was considering a T/C pro hunter for awhile but the feel of the stock was not good for me. Any other single shot suggestions?

Big Bird, The trigger is not yet being produced so I can't tell you all the details. But the company is the best of the best when it comes to making very high end iron sights (costing $600+ a set). So, if they make it, in my book they are good. Word on the street is that they are going to be drop ins. I cannot tell you more and to some extent, I'm rumor mongering so beware. But the company is truly first rate plus a lot more.

As for the Ruger #1. I gotta tell you, I am not, repeat NOT, open minded. It lacks a hammer for starters. It has some absolutely ridiculous "hanger" operation for the forearm it totally unacceptable and requires a mystic to fix.

There are a lot of options out there, but they can cost you a bundle. At the lower end, a new-made Pedersoli Sharps is not a gun to laugh at. At the high end, the Shiloh Sharps, the Ballard Rifle Company new-made Ballards and Highwalls, the Meacham Highwall and others are truly first rate out of the box. But it all depends.

And now I look up and see you mentioned .22-250. Forget the Sharps - Sorry about that. But a Ballard highwall is possibly doable if you can float the cash (a bundle). Hmmm, I have to chew on that one a bit. .22-250 heh?

Could I talk you into a .25-20 SS? Probably not. But you see, I live in the 19th Century and you are in the 21st.

Oh, one that is probably good is a varmintized military Sharps Borchardt. But it will cost you some and take some work.

Brent

For under $1000, your choices are rather limited these days.

The Encore will do, but I think it rather low in eye appeal. The stock is atrocious, but I imagine you can get other styles aftermarket.

SSK will chamber Contenders for a slightly watered down .225 Win they call the .226 JDJ. If you combined it with a used frame (I think the first generation jobs are much better looking than the current one), you'd likely be under $1000.

I thought my No.1 a decent rifle. I did sell it off, but still I don't hesitate to recommend one. My trigger wasn't the best, but aftermarket triggers are (were?) available from Brownell's, and others have reported decent factory triggers on theirs.

The H&R break open is not very pretty, but quite functional. It has a decent reputation, especially relative to its low-low price. It's available in .243 Win.

The C.Sharps 1875 is modestly priced (but over $1000), and they just might chamber for the .225 Win if you asked nicely. I've read buying a few extra firing pins is a good idea.

Oooo!, say, Brent, did you see there is another maker of those gorgeous 1875 Sharps these days? Wah-hooo!

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

As for the Ruger #1. I gotta tell you, I am not, repeat NOT, open minded. It lacks a hammer for starters. It has some absolutely ridiculous "hanger" operation for the forearm it totally unacceptable and requires a mystic to fix.

Could I talk you into a .25-20 SS? Probably not. But you see, I live in the 19th Century and you are in the 21st.



Brent

I see you like old style SS's and so do I, but I'd have to disagree with you on the #1. The fact it doesn't have a (exposed) hammer is fine with me and the ("ridiculous") forearm hanger is an extremely well engineered design. Most shoot well as is, but a few need some presure between the hanger & barrel: hardly requiring a "mystic" ) In fact, many of the most prevalent & best 19th century (where you live) SS rifles were hammerless.

The last bunch of Winchester 1885s that I've looked at (hardly a representative sample but probably a dozen here and there) all had fore ends that had terrible fitting to the barrel at the front of the fore end. Not a big deal to some, but I like my guns to look like they weren't carved out with a gouge by a blind man. OTOH a scratch or ding in the finish here or there is not a big deal to me, just a sign of honest (well, maybe ) use.

I've never handled a modern 1885, but I have dealt with several B-78's, the predecessor to the current 1885. I love them, and wish I could find more of them for sale !!!

I do prefer the 28" barrel of the 1885 over the older 78's 26 incher, but MUCH prefer the 78's pistol-grip stock over the 1885's straight one, both for looks and utility.

I have been told by people in the know that the 1885 was designed as a replacement for the 78 almost 100% due to the 78's complicated trigger. I have never had a problem with them, but if there were any, the 1885 was supposed to fix that. If you do have trigger problems, I have heard that this is the guy to get them set right -

Lee Shaver, lshaver@egunsmith.com

If you run across a B-78 full octagon in .30/'06 or .22/250, for a reasonable price, let me know!!

wingnut:

This probably isn't going to help you out much, but maybe someone else on here can fill in the blanks. I just saw a bunch of B78s (I'm pretty sure, remember commenting on him having a corner on B78s at that show) a month or so back at the Mesquite, Tx Show. They were on the table of "The" Browning man for this area. He is at all the bigger shows in E Texas and Tulsa with a big Browning Banner over his table. I think he was a past president of the Browning Collector's Assoc. I am pretty sure he lives in Palestine, Texas. However, I am terrible on names and don't have a clue what his is, even though I have bought several guns from him over the years. Whether he would have what you want or not and how reasonable it would be, I can't say. He ain't cheap but he is not ridiculous either. If nothing else, you can have him keep an eye out for what you want. Sorry I can't be more help but hopefully someone can supply a name and number.

I'll have to check into the other options that were mentioned. I was primarily looking for positive or negative feedback on the 1885. Which has been very helpful so far. When I saw the reduced price at the local gun store, I wanted to know more about the 1885. Were they reduced because of problems or issues with that model, or just wrong guns in the local market?

I'm looking for either a .223 or 22-250 varmint/paper puncher, and wanted something a little different. The 1885 was one of the rifles that intriqued me. Octagon barrel reminded me of grandpa's .22....I was not necessarily looking for a 19th century singl shot. The other rifle I was considering was the Win Coyote lite, a unique looking bolt. But a semi-custom would also be feasible.

I'm not opposed to going as high as 1500-2000, put there are other niches I still need to fill in my gun cabinet, so that was what lead me to here.

Big Bird,nothing wrong with the modern "1885" if you can call it that. It's a good gun.

A Ballard Rifle Co. 1885 will probably run you closer to $3k and $4.5k is easily achieved.

If you like the looks of the 19th century single shot (which is sorta missing from the current 1885s), just think of what a kick it would be to own and shoot a truly 19th century Winchester Singleshot in an original chambering. Beware, however, it is addictive.

Brent

Thanks, Gatogordo.

I'm not really looking for a particular 78, I love 'em all! But I don't have a .22/.250 in the safe at the moment, and not as many '06'es as I sometimes have had.

Do you know if that guy goes to the shows in Houston?

I used to hit the HGCA shows there at the Astrohall twice a year, and really enjoyed them, but have gotten out of the habit lately. I may have to go back again!

Wingnut:

I don't go to the Houston shows that often anymore, living in the countryside has made the traffic too much of a culture shock.....not to mention the 6 hour drive, but I imagine he goes to the Houston Gun Collector's show in what used to be the astrohall. He has one of those Browning Banners, yellow with Browning on it about 6 feet long above his table, kind of an Irish-German looking guy, reddish hair, ruddy complexion.

I picked up a Wyoming Commemorative 1885, these are .25'06 with a 30" octagon barrel and, darnit, a low comb stock with a crescent buttplate. The stockwork is probably supposed to appeal to the cowboy re-enactors but it is useless with a scope. It turns out that a B78 high comb pistol grip stock will fit, I bought a 25'06 B78 for the wood and am getting it put onto the 1885, plus triggerwork, by Mitch Schultz in Greenwich CT.

Brent,

isn't there a guy in Florida somewhere that was advertising a trigger fix for the jay-pan 1885's not too long ago?

Rich
DRSS & SSROS*

* Single Shot Rifle Owners Society.

PS: the 38-90 Shiloh is coming along well. Hope to shoot it at Quigley this year.

Big Bird,

if you do not mind a re-barrel might I suggest buying a Cimarron/Uberti High Wall instead? They are available in a couple of neat calibers, like 30-40 Krag (which would be a terrific 300yard varmint rifle with 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tips, and a crusher big game rifle with 180gr Partitions), and the 38-55. Get the Krag and a 25fl Krag is only a barrel away. Get the 38-55 and you could do a 219 Zipper Improved or Donaldson Wasp pretty easy. Hang a 28" heavy octagon barrel and a Unertl or Super TargetSpot on it, and even Brent would approve!! You could bring some serious pee water on Prairie Dogs and Rockchucks with either. Option C: do a search for "Wickliffe 76" here and see the re-introduction of that action by Tomo577. The originals were pretty nice rifles, and Tomo has one of the original Wickliffe stockers available to do the wood work. They even built them in 338Wm, so the action is pretty stout, and I feel, very attractive. An overgrown, stylized Stevens 44 1/2 to my eyes.

Rich
DRSS

Rich,
There is are three fixes for the Browning highwalls. One is to send the gun to Lee Shaver in Missouri. It's cheap, around $35 I think. You can google Lee or look for his website - something like www.egunsmith.com or similar.

Then there is Dale McGee's remedy which he published in Single Shot Exchange and which he will gladly tell you about. Dale can be found on the ASSRA forums more often than not. You can do this fix yourself if you are half-handy (or so I'm told, I don't shoot one of these myself).

The third fix is still virtual I believe. But rumor is that MVA (www.montanavintagearms.com) will be making a drop in set trigger for this rifle. If so, it would be the cat's meow as is everything else that MVA makes. But I do not believe that this has reached the hard-copy stage yet.

Get one a Uberti in .38-55 and ream it out to .38-50 Rem or .38-72 and kill an elk if you like. That's what I'm doing (with an original highwall action).

Brent

quote:

As for the Ruger #1. I gotta tell you, I am not, repeat NOT, open minded. It lacks a hammer for starters. It has some absolutely ridiculous "hanger" operation for the forearm it totally unacceptable and requires a mystic to fix.

Well, for one thing, the Ruger does have a hammer. It's just hidden inside. Two, the hanger thing is easily circumvented.
Three, I sure as hell ain't no mystic, but I've never had much of a problem making Ruger #1 rifles to shoot reasonably well. The reason I say "reasonably well" is just how much accuracy is needed to hunt deer, elk or other big game? Do you really need a rifle that shoots .25" to shhot a deer? varmints, yes, sure, but for big game, a .25" rifle is more of an ego trip than a necessity. My Ruger #1V .223 is a .25" rifle with white box Winchester 45. gr. HP ammo. My Ruger #1B rifles in .22 Hornet 6mm Rem. and .257 Robts. will all do anywhere from .50" to .75" and they're all old enough to have those lousy contract barrels. Most of the rifles I have suited for big game will all do 1.5" or smaller groups, mostly smaller, so where's the beef? I would rather have a rifle that shot 1.5" groups consistantly than a .25" shooter that placed each group somewhere else on the target other than the aiming point. I had one like that and I had to restock it. Now it's a consistant 1.25" gun and I like it like that. Oh yes, it's a bolt action.
I've only had one Ruger #1 that did not shoot worth a damn. Ruger rebarreled the gun for free and now it's a solid 1" gun. It's also one of my favorites, a #1A in 7x57 Mauser.
So let's look at the record. Out of 17 Ruger #1 rifles in various styles, only one was a bad shooter. Not too bad a record as I see it.
Oh yes. The Browning 78 has a hanger system not all that different from the Ruger. My one B-78 in 30-06 is extermely accurate with groups running from .75" to 1.25" consistantly, depending on what weight bullet I'm shooting at the time. I guess though that it passes muster because it has a hammer.
Paul B.

YOu can all it whatever you want, but if it doesn't give my thumb a reason for being - you can keep it.

The B78 is a strange gun, and while it does have a hammer, I would definitely not buy one myself. The original Highwall was just fine thanks and I own a couple of those. You are welcome to pick up all the #1s and b78s you want.

Brent

quote:

As for the Ruger #1. I gotta tell you, I am not, repeat NOT, open minded. It lacks a hammer for starters. It has some absolutely ridiculous "hanger" operation for the forearm it totally unacceptable and requires a mystic to fix.

Your statement is a clear admission of ignorance.

quote:

Originally posted by ZERMEL:
Your statement is a clear admission of ignorance.

I see. So the only opinion that is viable and worthy is YOUR opinion?

Nice to have not met you fred.

Brent

Zermel.

ignorance is a lack of knowledge, stupid is when you know better. Semantics and vocabulary are vital here to play the game...

I been around Brent a couple years at the Shiloh website, and he does know what he is talking about with regard to single shot rifle actions. Most SSR fans believe that a single shot rifle is not really one without an external hammer. They do not even talk about the Borchardt in positive terms. The external hammer is likely T-H-E B-E-S-T safety in the world. It performs the same vital function that external cocking pieces used to for boltguns.

Hey Brent, want to do it right and borrow my 38-90 reamers? Got a supply of brass and dies are out there at CH4D.

Rich
DRSS

Thanks for the offer of the reamer, but I'll pass. The .38-72 will be more than sufficient for me.

BTW, as incongruent as it may seem, I am building a Borchardt right now. .38-55 Zischang Schuetzen style. My thumb is considering defection....

Brent

Just my two cents worth.
I have a B78 and several #1's. All shoot very well--which is to say better than I can. Triggers are fine. The #1's are older models with adjustment.
The only thing I don't like about the B78 is that with a scope mounted there is limited access to the hammer. This is not a real problem if the weather is reasonable--not wet or very cold. Since most of my shooting/hunting was in cold, potentially wet weather my 78 has open sights. Now that I'm in a little bit milder climate returning to a scope my be an option.

I have forgotten, does the B78 come up at full cock when the action is worked? If so, that may save you some thumb work if the gloves/scope get in the way. Not optimal of course, but an option. The original 85s do this of course (except certain Winder musket models of course).

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
YOu can all it whatever you want, but if it doesn't give my thumb a reason for being - you can keep it.

The B78 is a strange gun, and while it does have a hammer, I would definitely not buy one myself. The original Highwall was just fine thanks and I own a couple of those. You are welcome to pick up all the #1s and b78s you want.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion Brent but, the fact is: many, if not most, of the very early high quality single shots did NOT have exposed hammers. You just happen to like giving your thumb something to do. Mine slides the saftey on my #1's and is quite happy doing so. You might talk to yours about expanding his horizons a little.
"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative" Oscar Wilde
PS: when I want real traditional shooting, I grab the flintlock. The ultimate single shot

In this constant game of oneupmanship, I fail to see where the "very early high quality singleshots" were mostly hammerless. Do you mean the John Rigby percussion muzzleloaders - arguably the finest muzzleloaders of all time? Or the golden age flintlocks that you seem to be enamored of. The Ballards, the 77 Sharps? Hell, even the Maynard had a hammer (but I'm sorta stretched to call that "fine"?

When I want an ultimate traditional single shot, I take out my longbow.

You keep those Ruger #1s all you want. I won't be driving the prices up on you any time soon.

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
In this constant game of oneupmanship, I fail to see where the "very early high quality singleshots" were mostly hammerless. Do you mean the John Rigby percussion muzzleloaders - arguably the finest muzzleloaders of all time? Or the golden age flintlocks that you seem to be enamored of. The Ballards, the 77 Sharps? Hell, even the Maynard had a hammer (but I'm sorta stretched to call that "fine"?

When I want an ultimate traditional single shot, I take out my longbow.

You keep those Ruger #1s all you want. I won't be driving the prices up on you any time soon.

Brent

No Brent, I was talking about all the fine single shot cartridge rifles, with internal hammers, like the Farquharson, Borchardt, Dan Frazier, Martini & all it's variations and of course, all the great German "hammerless" falling block & swinging block rifles, which many SS experts consider the finest single shots ever made. Most of those were made well before the 1885 Winchesters.
Nothing against your personal preference for thumb excercises, but that's all it is. Not that hammer guns are any better or more "traditional" than hammerless ones. They just happen to be what you (& your thumb) like..
BTW, I don't consider my longbow a single shot. Mine's a repeater

Greg,
"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make 'er think" A Florida Gardener

Yeah, I know of all of those. I have owned two Martinis (.22 and .577/450) which did nothing for me. Luckily sold them for what I had in them. The Tutonic falling blocks like the Aydts etc, look like something out of a horror movie or a construction site. Can't decide which. Some may consider them the finest somethings ever, but the folks I see shooting them rare/never win.

Like I said, I currently am building a Borchardt - simply because it's the only original Sharps action that I'll ever be able to afford. It's ugly, but it works.

I would not say that a hammered gun shoots better, but it sure does look better - and that's important to me, the critters I hunt, and the targets I kill

Same holds for shotties as well. Nothing looks more nekkid than a hammerless double shotgun (and, yes, I have several hammerless doubles).

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

I would not say that a hammered gun shoots better, but it sure does look better - and that's important to me, the critters I hunt, and the targets I kill

Brent

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I happen to think the Farquharson & Ruger #1 are the best looking single shots ever made. But you're welcome to yours as well. I like the Win 1885's too. But I like the #1's better

Well Big Bird...did you get the 1885 High Wall?

Hey Gentlemen,

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There are probably more beautiful singleshots than beautiful women in the world! I imagine there are some absolute breath takers owned by forum members and would make a wild thread to see some of them posted. I think they are all beautiful.. I love the farquharsons, hiwalls,lowalls,martinis, and #1s. I just wish i could afford one of each. Here's a 223 built about 15 years ago.

That's a beautiful rifle, Dale. Who did the color case on it?

Greg,

Donald Mink of Colorcase company inc. did the work. He has done about a dozen guns for Dad through the years and is work is fantastic. I can get you his number if you want it. Here are a couple more photos.

Brent,

my first Borchardt had the Neidner conversion, does that qualify it as an external hammer? Adolph used Krag or Springfield cocking pieces on at least a few conversions. This one also had DST's, and a rather striking set of stocks. Closing the action did NOT cock it, you had to manually pull it back to be able to fire it.
I really wish I had kept this one, 25 Krag FL.

Rich
DRSS

Rich,
I suppose it would be a heck of an improvement. Sure would like a set of those double sets too. Dang, you should never have sold that sucker.

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by daleatkins:
Greg,

Donald Mink of Colorcase company inc. did the work. He has done about a dozen guns for Dad through the years and is work is fantastic. I can get you his number if you want it. Here are a couple more photos.

Thanks Dale, but I'd hate to have that number . I love that stuff & I'm sure that's the old cyanide color that ain't cheap. Thanks for sharing those pics.
Heck, ole Brent would even have to admit that would look good on a #1.

Brent, I agree that most of the German Scheutzen SS actions, Aydts, Martinis, etc., are ugly and do not make up into neat hunting rifles. But there is a generic German vertical dropping block action, often seen with DST, a tang safety, shotgun type trigger guard with the underlever wrapping around it, reinforced action sides, made by many makers, that is very attractive and very strong. These make some of the handsomest rifles of all. You find them unengraved, border engraved, scroll engraved and with game scenes - the last are sometimes best avoided, a lot of deer look like horned daschunds. Heerens are also good looking but in my experience can give extraction trouble.

If anyone is interested... there is a picture of the Nidener Borchardt with cocking piece in Michael Petrov's book (Custon Gunmaker's of the 20th Century) on p 22. Pretty trick action.
Jeff P