Glenn,

I wansn't in Reno. Would love to see your Gibbs though.

Knowing your work and reputation, I am sure it is nothing short of steller.

Bailey:

Thank your for the kind words. We will have the photographs of the rifle in a week or so and I will post them for show and tell.

Sorry for the mistaken identity. There was someone there promoting a single shot action who said his work could be seen on the web.

It looks like your action has a lot of promise and I wish you all the best with it. Heaven knows we can always use another falling block action. I look forward to watching it all come together.

Best regards,

Glenn

Got a little shaping done. I had to get after the top tang with the welder to add material to make the tang trough lower. Already changed the CAD drawing and machined another action with the update. That's the way it goes with prototyping...

Anyway, let me know what you think.

Bailey

I think.. I think I need one. Nice shape on the lever.

Rich

How do you intend to hang the forearm? Count me as one starting to stash some cash!

The forend will be hung by a rectangular bar that will be added to the front of the action. The barrel will be free floated, or bedded, but no attatchment.

I don't EDM the extension in place as it would produce a lot of waste in raw material. Judicious use of a tig welder will put it in place.

Sounds good.

Bailey,

I can't quite tell, but is there any undercut or morticing on the reciever edges for stock fitting?

Are you by chance going to have any stock maker do a rough blank for the stock, for those of us that are not master wood workers?

After looking over your 7x57 break action for about the 100th time, I was wondering, what do you do when you are bored?

Ian,

There will be undercuts on the front and back of the action to fit the stock and forend. They really have to be there.

Moorepower,

I can CNC the stock to 95% finished shape. The inletting can be machined as well. The stock won't fit the action , but it takes me about an hour to head up the stock on my little double rifles with the inleting machined.

As for being bored....there really isn't time. :-)

I think my visit needs to be sooner than later.
Butch

Not me!! I am holding out for one of his damascus doubles.

Rich

Alright Rich, you need to create a mental image of the Granny from one of the all time great movies "The outlaw Josey Whales", and picture her saying to you..."Never took you to to be a Holdout!" and then have her look up with a condecending sneer......:-)

I've been working on the CAD file for the larger doubles BTW....

Working on my damascus from your buddy.
Thanks Butch

quote:

Ultimately, these will be made for the industry. I want to build and finish my little double rifles, but there is certainly a market for another stylish falling block, so I will sell these for others to stock and finish.

...thank you, bailey, for posting progress photos on your new falling block project...you are truly a "renaissance man" in the sporting arms field...

...i have been following your postings on the ne forum as well (re breakopen 7x57r)...will you be offering your version of the kipplauf in the future (along with the small bore doubles)?...

We need what we want...

I need the damascus double, preferably in a .500NE 3-inch. That and two trips to Africa to "blood" it on Cape Buffalo and a nice PAC tag Elephant. That could get me to send my Searcy back to Butch to add a set of 450-400 3 1/4" barrels.

Rich

Bailey,

You are very talented and I can't wait to see what you are going to turn out next.

Thanks for the compliments guys. I've spent the last couple of days trying to figure out the extractor. I fired a few rounds through it, and the extractor worked, but the rifle has a tight chamber ( the reamer is a minimum dimension 6.5-06). Cases come out about 3/16" most slid out the rest of the way, a couple has to be coaxed a little.

I tried a different design today. Both are driven by the underlever, and slide under the chamber and rise to catch the rim and cam over and drop to allow the case to slide out. The change I made was to allow the extractor to contact the case before the block is clear. The extractor is a two piece set up with the base attatched to the underlever housing a spring that backs the extractor foot. As the underlever drops, the extractor moves into the case rim, and since the block isn't clear, the extractor foot pivots and loades the spring in the base. Once the block clears, the extractor hits a hard point on it's base and forces the case loose. The idea was at this point to have the extractor spring to release it's energy and flick the case out a little further. It worked on loaded cases, but once fired cases still wanted to drag a little. I didn't fire any and try the extractor. It's proving to be kickn' my ass at this point.

I am considering going to a rimmed only extractor, as I know it will work and be much easier to get the actions moving, and figure out the rimless design later. Any thoughts?

I am looking at other extractor designs such as the Ruger 1. I've also made some subtle but significant changes to my action. Moving the center of the bore up about .04" to allow more movement on the internal workings. Fine tuning, but with a hunting chamber, the changes should help the extractor with a little more travel and less drag on the case.

Rich,

Do I sense a little pressure coming from you....wanting to fullfill your needs...or is it needing to fullfill your wants..... Either way, The check is in the mail../no wait, that's your line..er....aw hell I am confused..

quote:

I am considering going to a rimmed only extractor, as I know it will work and be much easier to get the actions moving, and figure out the rimless design later. Any thoughts?

Mr. Bradshaw:

I am following this with great interests. We certainly can use another quality falling block action and wish you all the best on your design.

Since you asked, I will toss a couple pennies in... First of all, I have never seen a better rimless case extractor/ ejector design that that of the Ruger #1. It really is a remarkable design.


Howsomever, to my mind there really is no reason to develop a rimless extractor. The rimless cartridge is in every way inferior to the rimmed or flanged. The only real value a rimless case is its ability to function when stacked in a magazine. A most useful quality indeed in a bolt rifle, but of no value whatsoever in a single shot. There is a flanged case for every possible purpose so there is no need to resort to the rimless case.

As for the extractor, without a doubt the best ever designed is the two lever Farquharson design as used by Gibbs. The two piece extractor gives tremendous initial extraction force followed by a very fast extractor throw that functions as a de facto ejector. It is the best of all worlds: positive extraction and the choice of ejector or extractor simply by how aggressively one operates the under lever.

I don't know if this system will work in your design, but if it will it is hard to beat.

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn,

Thanks so much for the reply. I am quickly leaning toward going the rimmed route. The Gibbs extractor will work in my action, and is the design I had in mind.

I was mainly concerned with limiting the appeal of my action with rimmed only calibers, But, for now it is what it is. I will get to work on the Gibbs extractor.

I would agree with the rimmed extractor. Simplicity is good.
Bailey, I do not know if you covered it; what is the angle of breachblock movement to the bore?

Bailey,

I vote for rimmed, for what it's worth. Mostly because I like your action and have been wanting to make a 30-40 Krag AI.

Steve

Well, it's looking like the rimmed extractor will be first.

Gwahir,

The block moves perpendicular to the bore, 90 degrees.

Bailey:

I reckon you might be right about restricting your market by building an action for rimmed cases only. While there is no practical reason for chambering a falling block for a rimless case, there is no arguing that some folks will want that. And wanting is as valid a reason for a cartridge choice as anything, I reckon.


The rimless extractor has to do two things that are not required of a rimmed extractor. First of all it must be able to snap over the rim of a seated cartridge. Secondly it has to have some way to disengage from the extraction groove of the case at the end of its stroke.

The 6:00 o'clock extractor disengages the cartridge by moving down as it pivots back. This works but tends to have a limited effective stroke. Ideally the pivot point for this extractor should be directly beneath or even slightly rearward of the front edge of the rim.

The 9:00 o'clock extractor has a longer effective stroke, but will not automatically disengage the case. Ruger solved this by using the block to cam the extractor out of engagement with the case. Perhaps you could find some way to incorporate this feature into the Gibbs style extractor.

In addition to the extractor moving away from the case, the timing of the action would have to be such as it would come to rest at this point. This is required to have the extractor out of the way for loading. Then the extractor would have to snap over the rim when the action is closed.

Are we having fun yet?


Glenn

Damn Glenn,
I think you may have fooled with a falling block or 3.
Butch

I agree with Glenn's comments. I am primarily interested in the action for something rimless, like the 6.5-06 of .30-06, although I could probably be talked into something rimmed...

From what you described, the rimless extractor design you currently have is very close. I'd hope that elevating the muzzle and working the action would reliably extract the spent case.

Clarence

Glenn,

the extractor I used is a "6 o'clock" type, and does all you indicated. My biggest issue is the combination of a tight chamber on this gun ( which can be remedied of course) and the short stroke. Moving the cener of the bore up a little will help as it will increase the extractor stroke, and it may work well enough. I just don't want any rifles out there with issues. Right now, I can get the extractor to drive an unfired case over half it's length out of the chamber, but a fired case only comes out about 3/16". I am sure a proper hunting chamber would remedy a lot of this issue. It extracts every time, but I am picturing myself on a mountain in Wyoming having to snag the case with a finger nail to get it out. Not a situation I want one of my rifles to put a hunter in. There are enough things in life that are a pain in the arse. My rifles shouldn't be another.

I am going to give some though into the idea of combiing the Ruger design with the Gibbs. That would allow the actions to be built with the ability to be chambered in rimmed or rimless with no changes. In fact sitting here brainstorming, I may have come up with something.....will let you know how it turns out.

Bailey:

Are you familiar with the extractor on the new Winchester "High Walls"? It is a 6:00 o'clock extractor of simple design that works pretty well.

I just thought I would throw that one in too in case the waters were not muddy enough yet... <g>

Glenn

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Damn Glenn,
I think you may have fooled with a falling block or 3.
Butch

Butch:

Sometimes I stop and think "That's it! First thing in the morning I am going to get a life."

But I never seem to get around to it...

Glenn

Bailey, design work is all compromise. The idea is getting the breech block out of the way in order that the extractor has room to function. The Hauck action was one of few that used a 90 degree breechblock movement with the extractor in the 6:00 position. It has rather limited extractor movement; not a real good design.

If you're planning on the volumes Ruger needs for its No.1, planning on an extractor for rimless cartridges makes sense. I think most single shot buyers contemplating a custom gun would be quite happy to use a rimmed case. Good grief: .25-35, 6.5x57R, 7x57R, .30-40, 8x57R, 9.3x74R, and .450/400 are all readily available and cover the full range of shooting needs with wildcats filling the niches. I'd recommend the two lever Farq as well.

Bailey, do you think this action would scale down for the .30-30 size cartridges, or perhaps the 5.6x50R? One could make a nice 4.5 to 5 lb stalking rifle with same. There's really no top notch small falling block action out there right now.

Karl

Gwahir,

I agree, the 6:00 position just doesn't give the travel needed.

I am working on the Gibbs/Ruger idea. I think I have it figured out, but until brass goes to flying, I won't say I have it. I will get there though, this isn't a rocket, so the science isn't either :-)

Karl,

This action is pretty small. It's only 2 1/6" tall. I don't want to make it any smaller, but it would be fine for the small guys. If you have a smaller diameter barrel in mind, the top barrel band can be dropped down to maintain proportions.

When held next to my Ruger 1, it is decidely smaller. I will shoot a picture for size comparison tomorrow.

That Gibbs extractor with the semi-ejecting cam is a thing of beauty.

It functions about perfectly, IMHO.

And single shots were made for rimmed cartridges. I would no sooner use a rimless round in a single shot than I would a rimmed round in a bolt action.

I know it's possible, but that ain't the issue!

Purists unite!

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

Purists unite!

Hear! Hear!



Glenn

I myself, don't think you need a bench rest tight chamber in a falling block. Rimless would be great, but there is a certain mystique of the rimmed Euro rounds.

Good News Good news.

I made another action...prototype number 2, or Mk1 Mod1 for you military types. Fitted the Gibbs style extractor, made a slight change to the underlever shape, added a latch like all godd Farkys have and a couple of other little changes for the better.

The best news is how well the extractor works. Drop the lever hard enough and it sends the case out as far and fast as any ejector I've ever used.

All that besing said, I am ready to start moving these out. PM, email or call me for details. (903)746-0004, baileybradshaw@netscape.com

Thank you for the info. Are you going to make us giddy w/ more photos? PLEASE?

Agreed. I have a custom falling block in 405 that is sensitive to rim thinkness.

quote:

Originally posted by Moorepower:
I myself, don't think you need a bench rest tight chamber in a falling block. Rimless would be great, but there is a certain mystique of the rimmed Euro rounds.

OK, here are a few photos. As I said before, I made a slight change to the underlever shape and added the latch. The extractor and cam require the two screws on the side of the action. I must say I am thrilled with it. Makes me feel nostaligic....only cure for that is one of these in .303 for my own use.