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| <eldeguello> |
There are times when a muzzle brake is really indispensable!! But what I dislike about most of them is that they spoil the cosmetics of a fine rifle, (the most effective ones seem to be the ugliest!!!) and add length to the barrel, changing handling characteristics. As you note, ear protection should be used at all times, and this negates the muzzle blast problem pretty well. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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| one of us |
You guys honestly hunt with ear muffs/plugs?? And do you ever bag anything? I have one of those electronic thingies that shut out loud noises and can be set to amplify normal hearing, I can even plug my radio into them! (Peltor something). I never take them of at the range, but hunting is very different. I would never dream of wearing anything like that in the field. I�ve tried and its extremely akward and uncomfortable. And muzzlebrakes are loud, and they have a very uncomfortable blast, I just hate being next to a guy with a muzzle brake at the range. It actually does make me angry. A stupid, unnecessary device. I�m not a big guy, nobody thinks I�m especially tough and neither have I been shooting rifles for half a century but I have no trouble shooting my .375 without a brake. And if you have, put a butpad on it or just shoot it enough to get used to the recoil. Must be a right royal mess to clean too. No support from me then, but if it works for you, great, still I�m happy you don�t shoot at my range. Tron | |||
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| <Fireball> |
quote:Yes I hunt with ear plugs!! I have them ready and when I spot my deer I put them in.....at that point I no longer need my ears to find the game.... I have yet to jump a deer or bear and NOT had time to slide them in(ear plugs) I have even used the bird hunting....but Like I have said before OLD BAD Habits die hard. Too each his own. As for the range?? Ever been to a 1000 Yard match?? Most now use brakes. But thank you for your opinion Fireball ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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| one of us |
Fireball What do you tell those animals to make them stand still? ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} 1000 yard matches disinterests me, I go to 100/200 meter ranges and stay away from the brake guys. And I still hear perfectly even though I shoot deer/moose/birds without hearing protection. I still wonder what pratical needs a brake caters for? " When I spot a deer I put them in", good one! I just shoot them. Tron | |||
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| <Fireball> |
Sorry that in Norway all your shots are at RUNNING deer...lol really now You dont have time to put them in.....NOW thats a Good one!! And If you shoot without hearing protection your hear is not Normal But then you have not had it checked.....I SAID you need to get your Hearing Checked.....lol Fireball | ||
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| <halfbreed> |
fireball, i use a gentry QUIET muzzlebrake. i have a 458 wm. due to a severe back problem, i needed a little help. a few years ago i could not even shoot a 30-30! i like to shoot a rifle a good 50 rounds a time as my nearest range is about 35 miles away. and am very lucky to get it for 2 hours. i allways wanted to go to alaska. i actually thought i was moving up to north west montana. unfortunantly that fell through. so i no longer NEED a big bore, but it is fun to shoot. also with the gentry brake the noise and blast is pointed away from the shooter. i notice very little, if any increased noise levels. later halfbreed | ||
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| one of us |
Fireball I have had my hearing checked, don�t worry about me I�m fine. Whatever works for you is fine by me, I don�t mean to try and change your preferences or hunting habits. But I still don�t believe you have time to put in earplugs when a deer jumps out of cover. I sometimes hunt "ambush", just sitting still and waiting for the game, and under such circumstances I would have time to put on hearing protection. Also when I once in a long while hunt from a blind (abandoned stable or barn) i use my peltors or I would go deaf (metall roof, no insulation...)Finally, sometimes, especially hunting reindeer, I spot the game from a distance and stalk them, having all the time in the world. But most often I stalk in thick forest and need my hearing, and must shoot fast when I spot game. I hate walking/stalking with muffs on and if I shoot 6-8 rifle shots each year while hunting it doesn�t make me deaf. As I said, my hearing checked out perfectly last spring. At the range I need a muzzleblastamplifier, sorry, a brake even less since I can wear a shoulder pad and take time to mount the gun right. You�ll never win me over!!! Tron | |||
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| <Fireball> |
What we are TOLD by the Designers is that a muzzle brake does NOT increase the noise. Go figure that one......Their answer is that the noise is redirected same as the recoil. And dont worry you will NOT change my habits. As for the experience I have found...They DO NOT make the gun any less accurate. They are NOT noisier to me when shooting and the Guys I shoot with claim it is NOT the noise but the FELT BLAST at the bench. And as always.. I use Ear plugs when I shoot. I so far see that is is Mostly wivestales and Stubborness that stops most from using them...Or better yet BRAKES are for Girls Right?? And if you are a bench guy or always looking for the Pet load?? being able to have LESS recoil helps you find that special load. Too bad that most newbies dont get both sides of the story ..just the OH HELL You dont need no Brake for your wife!! Hey what ever floats you boat Fireball [ 12-13-2002, 05:50: Message edited by: Fireball ] | ||
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| one of us |
Well I will tell it like it is. If I am at the range and blow a muzzle blast that makes the guy next to me blow a trigger pull, then I am in his space. Muzzle brakes do that. They are rude and intruding. But it is a fact that they help some shooters so its OK with me if they use them somewhere else besides where their braking wind knocks across my bench. As to not makeing more noise? that is bull. and any one that sais that is full of bull. and should know better. I find a muzzle brake as unnerving to shoot next to as a wild semi autoloader that spits hot brass onto my bench. I leave if a screen is not available. On the fine guns I like, a muzzle brake is as bad an idea as a sissy bar on a motorcycle or training wheels on a bicycle. Ever see muzzle brakes on a double rifle or double shotgun? If you like them use them. but do not tell me I do not have a right to dislike being around one. | |||
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| <Fireball> |
quote:Boy are you Panties in a WAD!!! Do as you wish I could CARE LESS Fireball | ||
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| one of us |
Fireball I�m not impressed by myths. If a brake just reduced recoil and had no side effects everybody would be using them. I�m not bothered by recoil, but if my guns didn�t have any I could fire faster follow up shots and monitor my sight picture for trigger faults etc. Fact is they only work if they redirect the gas behind the bullet wich acts like the trust from a jet engine and creates recoil (some call it "secondary recoil", as opposed to the "primary recoil" wich is the force-counterforce effect of pushing a bullet down a barrel). With a brake gas is redirected from going straight away from the shooter to exit the barrel to the sides, at 90 degrees + -. This means that the noise of the expanding gas (no longer contained under pressure in the barrel, working on the base of the bullet) hit the shooter next to you right in the ears and it hit the shooter behind the brake more directly than if the gas escapes straight away from you. As far as I have understood the theory behind muzzle brakes a "quiet" brake simply doesn�t work. If its quiet it can not reduce recoil, if it reduces recoil it can not be quiet. I respect that you prefer the recoil reduction of a brake and that you don�t mind the hazzle of compensating with ear protection etc. I certainly don�t mean to imply that I think you should "wise up" and quit using them. But to deny the obvious disadvantages of a brake is kind of like sticking your head in the sand. Hope you are more considerate when shooting at a range with other people than your opinions seems to reflect. Tron | |||
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| <Fireball> |
quote:Well this is how that works. Most of my bench work is a remington 700 in 6br and no brake. Now as it stands I see No respect from other when they start banging off a 300 win mag next to me while I am trying to shoot small groups. For that matter the Semi-auto guys just love to sit next to you with a 7.62 russian or what ever and bang aways Bam Bam Bam. So i guess it should not bother them for me to break out the 7.62 war bird with a BRAKE now should it??? At the private range I belong too we are never crowded and have room to dissapate from one another...but at a public range??? Thier is NO respect for others now is their??? So YES I take Pride in Using a 7.62 Warbird with a Brake to loosen up the Bam Bam Bam next to me......Now Do you see that differently??? And at our Bench rest shoots Who would care??? Most Long range shooter use them. I dont think we are much different in our thinking..........Other than ear plugs...YES You do have time to use them MOST of the time when Deer or bear hunting and Elk or most big game...Ofcourse if you JUMP the trophy of a life time I would shoot without them..But then...it is RARE for that to happen now right?? when tree hunting or stalking I have 99% of the time been able to Install my plugs with PLENTY of time to spare as I wait for the Proper shot. So yes I still fell most of the reasons for a brake not being used are do to LACK of REAL knowlege or Just BS. But I could care less what others do..and as far as the QUESTION?? most Make a wild BS excuse and with it a Personal ATTACK on the people who do..WHY??? Like I said we are NOt so much different I just enjoy brakes and think most would if given a real chance....with Plus their really Are not MAny drawbacks Now are their...and if you Varmit hunt for real??? you do have a Potable bench or blanket??? Right?? And many brakes nowdays do Not blow the blast down any more. Fireball........now you go Shoot some of them Runnin deer you got......lol | ||
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| one of us |
What more proof do we need that brakes are bad for you?!!! LOL Fireball looks like you have been drinking too much eggnog from your 'potable' beench. Plateau Hunter | |||
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| one of us |
Being an Engineer, the Browning BOSS gave me a hardon when I read about it. I had to have it. I was about to buy a Browning A-Bolt 300 WSM and by God the BOSS would be the crowning glory. I even called Browning to inquire why I couldn't get the BOSS on my rifle when I found out the 300 WSM was so new that the BOSS wasn't an option. Then I thought about what it would really add to the whole equation. I couldn't come up with anything. So I shoot an inch and a half group at 300, maybe, instead of a 3" group. That's not a good enough reason. For my hunting purposes 3" at 300 is fine. Recoil doesn't scare me. I agree with the comment about a muzzle brake making a gun look ugly. My first shotgun was a 12 ga. bolt action with a horribly ugly choke adjustment blob on the end of the barrel. I was embarrassed to be seen with it, and sold it before I turned fifteen. A muzzle brake reminds me of that shotgun. I told myself maybe I'd add a BOSS later. Now I know the answer. I won't. I love the Browning Medallion exactly as it is. The recoil is not uncomfortable. The rig is a sexy m-----f-----. Everytime I go to the range or to a hunting camp someone wants a chance to hold it. On the range I shoot with hearing protection. In the field I've hunted too many years to start sticking ear plugs in at the last minute. I'd be embarrassed for one thing; and there is something else that's a little harder to put into words. I shoot paper with ear protection. If I am going to inflict death on some living thing I need to be willing to accept a small amount of discomfort. It's not too much to ask. Frankly, when I fire at game I don't "hear" the gun go off. I'm so focused that I know it happens, and I know the gun kicks me, but I feel virtually no sensation at all. A muzzle brake is "neat", but it's not for me. | |||
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one of us |
You won't hear me rag on brakes. I cannot hunt with rifles, so I hunt with handguns chambered for rifle cartridges, namely the .45-70 and .50 Alaskan. Yes they have brakes, and yes I wear electronic hearing protection that not only blocks the noise of the shot, but gives me a heads up with their amplified sound ability. I always hear the game long before I see them. My son wears them too and we have never had any complaints, not even is zero degree weather as a hat over the muffs is not that big a deal. When a shoulder problem years ago made my .416 Rigby too painful to shoot, it was either wimp out on the loads or brake it, so I braked it. It then had less recoil than the .300 Wby and after my shoulder healed, the brake could have come if I wanted it to, but I find I leave it on mostly. The KDF Streamline brake is not that obtrusive to be objectionable. As to my .50 BMG, damn right it braked and it always will be. Ugly yes, but when it kicks like a light-weight .243, I'll live with it! As to comments about not hearing the shot when shooting at game, trust me, you hear it, and damage is being done to you ears, you just do not remember hearing it, but you ears sure do. Sure, it is just a little bit of damage each time, but that damage is permanent and cumulative. It's your hearing, do what you want, but for me, brake or not, if the gun goes boom, the muffs are on, range, woods, or fields. | |||
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| one of us |
Ah, the perfect thread for me to chime in with a question. I've got a Win 70 in 416 Rem mag and was thinking of having the barrel Magnaported. Its just a coupla slits up by the front sight; doesn't look 'dorky' like that big corncob hanging from the end of the shotgun barrel. Gee, that brought back memories, cause I remember, as a kid, my uncle having one on his shotgun. It was god-awful ugly! Is the Magnaporting process worth the $135 cost? That is, will it reduce felt recoil from 400 grain solids? | |||
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| <Fireball> |
quote:I have not found MAgna Port to be near as Effective as A couple of the EA Brown Models or the one from dave VAnhorn. Check out the Information on RVB precisions website. Some Muzzle brakes will detract from Accuracy and blow dirt around when you must shoot from the prone position. In my opinion I would use the EA brown Varmiter. Excellent recoil reduction...HELPS accuracy and Works for Varmit hunting if you so desire....Und unlike most feel if you dont shoot with ear plugs the apperant noise created is only TERRIBLE to the person directly to your side or standing in front of you..WHICH can NEVER BE when you are Hunting Safely. RON | ||
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One of Us |
Magnaporting is NOT a muzzle break. It does little to reduce felt recoil. It is designed to help control/eliminate muzzle climb. When short barreled big bores were all the rage, many folks were getting bit by their scope due to excessive muzzle climb. Magnaporting was the answer for short barreled big bores. Today, most have leaned that muzzle climb can be controlled by using a proper length barrel. As to the use of muzzle breaks you either hate them or love them - there is no middle ground. The only fallacy that I see so many making when defending the use of muzzle breaks is that ear muffs are sufficient to eliminate the additional noise created by most breaks. This simply is NOT true. Many breaks create in excess of 180dB. Ear muffs reduce noise levels by 30 to 35dB. This simply is not enough to fully protect you from hearing damage AND muffs are completely ineffective in stopping temporal bone induction. Unless you are shooting in a pressurized space suit, your body is being exposed to a tremendous pressure wave. That energy is reverberated throughout your skeleton and particularly your head. This energy is absorbed by your soft tissue in your body including your inner ear. Expose your inner ear to repetitive noise and nerve damage results. Of course nerve damage makes hearing difficult. If you want to shoot with a muzzle break go right ahead. BUT please don�t believe that you are fully protecting your hearing by using muffs. Anyone who is concerned about this should speak with a auditory surgeon familiar with the energy created by gun blasts. The evidence is apparent and overwhelming.... | |||
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One of Us |
As for the original question. They're ugly...... | |||
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| One of Us |
[ 12-14-2002, 23:56: Message edited by: muffin ] | |||
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| <Fireball> |
quote:Just for you Zero Drift I will dig out and post the decible levels for barrels with and without the brake as researched and published by guns and ammo a few years ago. What you are going to find is that the Decibel level is NOT as you discribe but hardly more than without a brake but the felt blast and increase in Level just to and in front of the shooter increased by 20% I hope to have it ready by this evening. But thanks for the comments Fireball | ||
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| one of us |
The perfect ending to that bolt action 12 ga. I had with the "corn cob" adjustable choke attachment on the end was that my girlfriend's younger brother thought the gun was cool. (Tells you what a dork he was.) I sold the shotgun to him and about two weeks later he called me and raised Hell about how I'd screwed him. Seems he had backed the knob almost completely off, then fired it. The "corn cob" took off with the load of shot, and he blamed me for losing it. I decided the genes in that family weren't very good and married another woman. | |||
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| one of us |
"Why are most so against them?? I NEVER shoot without some sort of hearing protect and Do NOT let the kids either. Is it just a macho thing we have against them??" Fireball: A careful reading of these posts will find a lot of opinions offered as to why so many are against muzzle brakes. This is what your query asked for. If you read these posts, they also state another concept: acceptance of the value and rights of people to use them if they want to. They do work to improve accuracy for some shooters. In your posts, I sense a lack of accceptance on your part. blowing the guy off the next bench over as a spiteful vengeance because he has made a loud noise with his 300 win mag, or with his repeater if I recall your words. In all sincerity I think you should shoot with panty brakes on your rifles. Just understand when I quietly move away from your station at the range. I would not be so rude as to say why. There are plenty of good opinions offered here. Your rebuttals reflect little empathy, and show a certain combative aggression. I hope you protect your hearing, since you dont listen anyway!!!! cheers and remember we all do it for fun!! | |||
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| one of us |
Jameister Amen to that, and since this thread seems to turn into a quarrel more than it does a debate, I will leave it at that. Tron | |||
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| one of us |
My gunsmith talked me into putting a muzzle brake on my first 7mm Rem Mag. It was a mistake for me because, first of all, I can handle the recoil just fine without it. I hate how loud it is, I dont always have time to put ear plugs in in a shooting situation. It blows everything off the table at the range. I just dont like it. But, in a truely heavy caliber if you need it, use it, but make sure you always wear plugs in your ears. | |||
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| one of us |
I love my brake on my .300 Win. It was done in Kansas City by a company called Delta Vector. They actually build the brake inside the end of the barrel. Loud? Yes it is but that lets everyone in the hollow know I got my deer  By all you guys crying about hearing loss I suppose you never go to a loud bar, or concert or even listen to the stereo turned up loud. Guess you never had a hot rod or loud motorcycle either? I also guess you all work in quiet office buildings? The second hand smoke someone breathes is probably worse for them than the little hearing loss you get from shooting a gun with a brake. You all talk like you think you will live forever. I say if a brake makes a gun more comfortable to shoot use it. If I am at the range and someone don't like hearing my brake they are free to go home and come back later. Am I rude? Not as rude as the guys that tear the place up and leave the place a mess. | |||
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| One of Us |
Fireball - I have been patiently waiting for your rebuttal and proof that muzzle breaks only increase noise levels by 20%. Alas, I figured that I would supply actual numbers for your edification and education. Feel free to counter with �your� data.... This data was gleaned from http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/miscelli.htm#sound . . . "It is generally accepted that a continuous noise level of 85 db (decibels) as measured on the "A" scale is the maximum safe level for long term expose to steady noise level with in the frequency range of about 600 - 1200 Hz. The very brief gunfire noises are another matter. Leading hearing specialists stipulate that about 150 db is the maximum peak limit for gunfire noises without impairment of speech perception and 140 db maximum without impairment of good hearing of music and the like. The table below will give you an idea of the sound level of some typical firearms, measured at the location of the shooters ears. It should be noted that decibels are a logarithmic scale and that the sound energy doubles with each 3 db increase. Cartridge Peak Noise Level - Measured at shooter's ear. 12 & 20 ga field load shotshells......173dB .30-06................................170dB .30-30................................168dB .458 Win Mag..........................175dB 7mm Rem Mag with a muzzle brake.......182dB .243 Win..............................170dB .22 LR Rimfire HS.....................155dB .22 LR Rimfire Standard velocity......150dB .22 Short Rimfire Standard velocity...143dB The information above makes it clear that hearing protection should be mandatory when shooting. Most of this data was excerpted from "Acoustic Trauma of Sportsman Hunters Due To Gun Firing," The Laryngoscope, Volume LXXII, No. 11" | |||
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| one of us |
I hunt where ranges are short and I often hear a deer before I see it and once I see it he can see me and putting plugs in would mean deer escapes. I have very good hearing and protect my ears whenever I can . At 60 my hearing is much better than most. Do a hearing test on a group of 18 year olds, you will find that most have lost a significant part of their hearing. Thats mostly due to LOUD rock music. Trying to tell a teenager to turn down the volume is impossible. | |||
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| one of us |
I NEVER wear hearing protection when hunting.That is the most ABSURD suggestion I have heard of in a LONG time.I try NOT to cover my ears with ANYTHING at ANY COST.(Notice my Fireball like use of capitals).The clue to successful hunting is seeing,HEARING,motionlessness and marksmanship.A deer uses the sense of hearing to a GREAT extent.I certainly DO as well.Earplugs/muffs FORGET about it!Putting them on in an uncovered treestand to shoot,NO WAY!!!Muzzlebrakes may help out at the range,but a SEASONED hunter has NO use for them.PERIOD! P.S.I find the use of capitals like that quite obnoxious.Good luck hunting fella's. | |||
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| one of us |
small fish I know, I know.... Kind of like flyfishing with diving goggles. It also suprises me that so many on this thread disregard the comfort and safety of their fellow shooters at the range. I have met lots of friends at the range, without mutual respect we would barely have tolerated each other. Tron | |||
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| one of us |
Take a look at the Vais muzzle brake at www.muzzlebrake.com they work and becasue of their unique design there isn't any blast of exhaust gas for eithr the shooter or those near by to contend with. | |||
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| One of Us |
I won't have a muzzle brake (that's b-r-a-k-e) on a hunting rifle because of the cosmetics and the extra holes and crevices to clean. On a 50 cal., yes, because the gun could actually break my shoulder otherwise. But there, the brake seems to add to the picture rather than detract. I haven't ever been bothered by somebody else's muzzle brake (noise or cosmetics). To each his own. I wear ear plugs, and I can put on muffs over top of those if the noise is getting to me. I do little bench shooting, so I'm generally standing, sitting or laying prone and not in the path of my neighbor's re-directed muzzle blast. H. C. | |||
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| one of us |
small fish, I am with you all the way pal! I refuse to use ear plugs hunting. I do have some hearing loss from roughnecking in the oilfield in the geysers in Northern CA, so yes I am concerned about my hearing, and being an owner of a 7 mag with a muzzle brake, I simply have no time or place for it. I hated it, that rifle currently is sitting at my gunsmith, for some lucky guy who actually wants one of them to buy. I am not opposed to anyone using one, I tried it, and I did not like it, and most I have spoke to who have tried them also didnt like it. I would rather have a fine trigger pull, excellent scope, recoil pad for your shoulder if you need it, and a huge muley in my sites to ease my pain. Seriously, if you want to use one, use it for practice, take it off for hunting. | |||
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| one of us |
I notice that Fireball started this thread, asked for reasons/opinions, ragged on all who disagree with him, and then left! Troll | |||
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| one of us |
I have nothing against them other than they are ugly. I have a 416 Taylor that would be more pleasant to shoot if it had a brake. The brake would deter from the looks of the rifle and when I'm hunting I don't notice recoil. I was at a range talking to another shooter when the person next to me decided it was time to fire a 300 Win Mag with a brake. I had my back to him and when he touched off the 300 I almost jumped out of my skin. He thought it was quite funny. I don't hear very well out of my left ear any more. | |||
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