Hi all,

Out of curiosity I've been trying to work out the falling block arrangement on a Hagn and how it compares to a Farquharson in operation.

On a Farq the block mortise is angled roughly 2 degrees so as the lever is dropped the block is pulled away from the breech face. The front of the block is then relieved with a section that's perpendicular to the bore so the cartridge has a flat face to chamber against and maintain headspace. Does the Hagn operate in a similar way? The reason I ask is the Hagn has a round bushing in the block that is supposed to protrude 0.005" from the face of the block for the cartridge to seat against. So if this protrudes from the block, is the top half of the block relieved to allow for this. It just seems in pictures the block looks one continuous face (no relieved or angled sections) and that it seats up as far as it can against the front section of the block mortise when in battery.

Or is the Hagn block mortise actually vertical and not angled?

Hope any of that made sense!

Would anyone who owns a Hagn possibly shed some light on this for me?

I have never held a Hagn action in my hands but came across some scale drawings.

The primary reason for the Farquharson (and several other falling block actions) having an angled mortice is to make room for the extractor to work.

The Hagn's extractor works on a unique principle and doesn't need the extra clearance, and thus there is no reason the mortice can't be square to the barrel centerline, and I believe it is square.

There is a radius at the top of the block to push the cartridge into the chamber fully and I suspect the bushing you mention would have the corner rounded off. This bushing is not shown in any of the drawings I have see. This arrangement may not give you much of a camming advantage (especially when you consider that the Hagn is one of the very few cock-on-closing falling block actions so the lever is already doing other work while closing the action as well), and ammunition for a Hagn probably needs to be full-length sized.

Not sure if that helps at all?

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the reply, it certainly does help. If you have a look at the link below about halfway down the page you'll see a section drawing with the bushing shown. It's essentially a striker disc that retains the firing pin but also acts as a seat for the cartridge.

https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/hartmann-weiss/

That's interesting what you were saying about clearance for the extractor, I assumed it was to relieve pressure off of a fired cartridge case in the event of a sticky chamber, but your explanation makes sense.

I do not think that the firing pin bushing protrudes beyond the face of the block. There would be no need for the protrusion, and it would cause problems.

Matabele, I would love to see the section drawing but unfortunately the link gives me an error.

I doubt an angled mortice is much help in getting the block open on a sticky chamber or after an over-pressure round.
The first falling block rifle I built did not have the mortice rise high enough (due to an erroneous a desire to have better chamber access), and despite having a 5 degree angle with bore-line, with high pressure loads it is quite difficult to get the block moving. Consequently I suspect that this angle makes no difference in getting the block moving and once it is moving one would be able to keep it going.

The second action I built has the mortice sides extend up pretty high (once bitten twice shy) and that one handles book-maximum loads with ease. So the height of the mortice shoulders is of far more importance than the angle, and the Hagn is very well designed in this respect.

The angled mortice makes it easier to seat a cartridge; a very important consideration at the time most of our single shots were designed!

I believe the mortise in the Hagn is vertical. The bushing does not protrude. I haven't spoken with Martin for several years (I just don't visit much), but I realize neither of us is getting any younger, so I should try. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by gwahir:
The angled mortice makes it easier to seat a cartridge; a very important consideration at the time most of our single shots were designed!

For sure. But much less important nowadays.

Thanks for the replies everyone, much appreciated. I was speaking with a contact yesterday who owns several Hagn actioned guns and he confirmed the mortise is vertical. Although he did say the Hagn Mk1 action had an angled mortise, but this was dropped in later versions.

The bushing protrusion is a bit of a mystery as it certainly makes sense that it should be flush, and wouldn't offer any advantages if protruding. However Steve Hughes did a writeup on a MK4 Hagn action for the Accurate Rifle magazine, and in his detailed description of the action he mentioned the 0.005" protrusion. Either way I don't think it makes much difference.

Do you have any pictures of the rifles you built Peter, sounds interesting!

In retrospect I may need a small helping of 'crow'! I have worked a lot with the Hauck, which shares a Teutonic heritage with the Hagn, although the Hagn is a much more advanced design. Both have a vertical block and I have installed Mann-Neider pin systems in a couple Hauck, which involve a fireing pin bushing, so am kinda on the same page. Actually, I no longer see a disadvantage with a protruding bushing, especially in light of Peters comment about the 'corner being possibly being rounded off of the bushing'; resolving the issue of the bushing catching up on the case head as the block rises. The Hagn bushing is big; larger than the case head, it appears, so the entire force of pressure passes through it and is transferred to the block. The bushing can be easily swapped with one of a different size to change head space. It would be easy to remove the bushing and surface grind it. It is simple and it is big. Simple and big are good! At least in this context. The bushing is held in place with a cross pin, so there is no force actually pulling it against the breech block??

I had a mini size action in 223 and I now am having built a medium action in 30/06. Even with my small hands the mini was just too tiny. I couldn't get my fingers between the frame and lever so I sold it. Hagn will put a 30/06 on a small action but I chose the medium size for more ergonomics. It will be stocked in the next couple of months. The barreled action weighs 4.5 pounds and I anticipate a 7.5 pound complete rifle. The .223 mini weighed 4-12.

Interesting discussion this is. I'll add another question.

I've seen a photo of the breech block of a Hagn. On either side of the firing pin bushing is a slightly raised surface. (At the camera angle, it's not obvious if the bushing itself also protrudes.) Another photo of the breech end of a Hagn suggests the face of the barrel is milled down a little either side of the bore, as if to mate to those raised sections of the breech block's face. Why is this done?

Can you post a photo? Off hand I can see no reason for what you describe. Not that there may not well be one!

Here is the the breech block, and here is the the end of the barrel. (These parts are not from the same rifle.)

It is rather important for the breech block to fit closely and the raised areas would allow for that with out interfering with head space. I like it! I am also impressed with the extractor being out of the way.

I expect that the marks on the barrel are simply caused by being in contact with the movement of the breech block?

Thanks for the pictures.

I believe the barrel is actually filed for clearance when it is fitted. In general, if Martin can think of a way to complicate things, he's happy to do it! Actually, that's not fair. His action is a simple and reliable design; it is his methodology which complicates things. Each part is fitted, by hand, using files and stones. Flats are flat and clearances are minimal. He uses gauges and templates to maintain consistent dimensions and contours. He really is an amazing workman. Regards, Bill

Martin is no prima donna..He's happy to answer questions you might have and that way...you'd actually have the facts .

The action is about the smartest single shot out there. Fact is that Don Allen solicited permuission to use the mainspring idea on his own SS.

The ingenuity of the super engineered simplicity of his action was not
overlooked by no less than Hartmann and Weiss

asdf, I never mentioned I really appreciate the Hagn photos you posted. I am interested in the extractor and building one. Your pictures helped.

Otto: Your comments about Martin's health were well intended, I'm sure. On the flip side, not appropriate ( in my opnion)

I received a note yesterday from an acquaintance that Martin Hagn has died. I read it was from cancer. I don't think I've ever read a harsh word about his work or his personality. I regret not carrying through with a rifle he and I briefly discussed, but I will be visiting Ralf Martini to continue along those lines.

Hagn actions and rifles website is still up, and Martin's obituary is shown there, so someone must still be selling actions. Martin didn't build them himself. Some grouchy machinist is Alberta apparently made them. So the actions should still be available. I have finished my .30/06 on the medium action. I'll post photos soon.

I am under the impression Ralph Martini is either still building the actions or at least building rifles on them?

If you are interested in the Hagn, this is a nice video to watch:
https://youtu.be/Jr5Akvgxjkg?si=sfLAE0--vOcrOpJC

I visited Ralf Martini's shop in late June. He has a few dozen Hagn actions on hand in various states of finish, and I believe all of them he collected from Hagn's shop.

I recall the actions are now CNC (instead of castings), so future production should not be difficult, if he is able to locate the data files. Hartmann & Weiss in Germany also offer the Hagn action, so production might come from there.

Martini does beautiful work and is a nice fellow, but I may have made a mistake in pointing out the action was much stiffer than one I'd handled about a decade ago. He since hasn't replied to either text or e-mail. I suspect the other gunsmith had simply substituted a much lighter mainspring.

His shop is just over the border and can be reached by rental car from Spokane's airport. It's beautiful country for a drive.

You are not getting a reply because Martin unfortunately passed away several months ago.

You might read again my two previous posts in this topic.