Hi, Wondering what experience You guys have had with the Ruger No1 in 303 British, It seems that some people have been disappointed with theirs.
Also interested in any cast bullet loads for the 303 British
Thanks

From what I have read about the ruger #1 in 303 they used the wrong bore measurements. Lots of posters at the cast boolits web site have made mention of this fact. zYou could send out your barrel for reboring along the lines of the 375 flanged 2 2.5 shell and go for there. depends what you are going to use the ruger for. Frank

x-rings: My rifle has been shot principally with cast bullets. Both conventional gas check and paper patched. It shoots pretty much at the MOA level with either, sometimes a bit better than that. The only jacketed bullets I've tried are some Federal factory, 180 grain. They grouped similarly and are certainly suitable for most hunting needs. My bore slugged at .313 which is essentially what the original cartridge specifications set as a standard. But, there was considerable variation in bore diameters of military barrels.
What has been done wrong for many years is bullet manufacturers make bullets too small to fit the standard bore in the manner we tend to think is correct. I believe Woodleigh may be the exception but have not seen any of their bullets here yet.

quote:

Originally posted by stocker:

What has been done wrong for many years is bullet manufacturers make bullets too small to fit the standard bore in the manner we tend to think is correct. I believe Woodleigh may be the exception but have not seen any of their bullets here yet.

I think this statement is very correct. The manufacturers know it too. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Their bullets cannot be allowed by them to drive pressures too high in whatever clunker of a rifle they happen to be fired in by the ultimate individual users.

The .303 Brit is certainly not the only example of this bore-size phenomenon.

The original .M 1894 Winchester 30-30 barrels were often .306" groove diameter or maybe even a tad smaller. For the past 50 years or more .30-30 barrels are pretty much all close to .308" groove diameter when sold new, but the manufacturers cannot rely on that...they have no way of knowing what groove diameter barrels the bullets will be fired in, or the condition of the rifles those barrels will be on.

I bought 4,000 C.I.L. 170 grain jacketed RN .30 bullets a few years ago. Every one of them was .306" diameter or smaller. I have a .30 "bump-die", so I just bumped them up to .3085" diameter. (I also have a bump die for .303 Brit bullets, with which I can increase their diameters to as much as .315" if I need/want to do that.)

The .30-40 U.S. Krag barrel groove diameters varied by as much as .003" (or more) from smallest to largest groove diameters.

How many 8M/M, .44, .38, .22 groove diameters are there which the bullet manufacturers must remain wary of?

And there are some modern revolver examples of that too...from Colt mainly, but there are others too.

So of course your statement is likely very true.

ABCanuck: I've tended to think the manufacturers wanted a bullet that would also be usable in the 7.65 Argentine which usually does have a .311 bore. 303 users can either use those bullets or not but they appear not to want to tool up for proper diameter so we are supposed to make do. Lee Enfield barrels seem to be all over the map regarding bore sizes so maybe it wouldn't be very easy to please every one any ways.

Some Rugers that I dealt with had bores in the .315"range and was principally why they didn't group with modern projectiles!

According to the Small Arms Identification Series by Ian Skennerton "Magazine Lee-Enfield Rifle" Page 29

1) Lee Metford and Lee-Enfield Mk1:
Barrel Specification:
Barrel Length - 30.5"
Rifling Metford - 7 groove L.H. 1 turn on 10"
Rifling Enfield - 5 groove L.H. 1 turn in 10"
Bore Dia - 0.303"
Metford Rifling Depth - 0.004"
Enfield Rifling Depth - 0.0055
Metford Land Width - 0.023"
Enfield Land Width - 0.0936

From book "The British Service Lee" by Ian Skennerton Page 86
2) Short Magazine Lee Enfield Mk 3:
Barrel Specification:
Barrel Length 25.2"
Rifling Enfield - 5 groove L.H. 1 turn in 10"
Bore Dia - 0.303"
Enfield Rifling Depth at muzzle - 0.0065
Enfield Rifling Depth at breech and to within 14" of the muzzle - .005
Enfield Land Width - 0.0936

From book "The British Service Lee" by Ian Skennerton Page 158
3) Short Magazine Lee Enfield Mk 4 & 5:
Barrel Specification:
Barrel Length 25.2"
Rifling Enfield - 5 groove L.H. 1 turn in 10"
Bore Dia - 0.303"
Enfield Rifling Depth at breech - .005
Enfield Land Width - 0.0936


BSA made factory bore gauges in sizes .3025, .303, .3035, .304, .3045, .305. .305 being considered worn out!

It would seem from this data that an Enfield 303 could be .303" over lands and a bore of up to 0.314" at the breech and to 0.316 at the muzzle.

I have bugged many rabid .303 fans for a real source document for the .303. That would be a completely dimensioned and toleranced original British ordinance format drawing for both the chamber and cartridge. I also asked one of the major loading die companies for that same information and he sent me all he had. But his reference information was sketchy too. Now 5 or 6 years later I have never seen an official drawing that I would consider real.
There are documents that suggest that the maximum groove diameter can go up to .316 but they are not on an official ordinance drawing format.
In regard to the 7.65 Mauser Speer once made a bullet specifically for it and it was .313.

CIP drawing says the 7.65 bore dia = .301 and the groove diameter is .3118. However the CIP drawings are not the original German source documents so who know what the real drawings say.

I wish they had made the 303 #1's in the 1-s configuration with 26" barrels.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
I wish they had made the 303 #1's in the 1-s configuration with 26" barrels.[/QUOTE

Matt - So do I Señor!

I just got one in that configuration chambered in .300H&H. I love the cartridge and the gun...but would have jumped at the chance to get it in the rimmed .30-cal instead.

Yeah, I know...Canucks and their .303's...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SR4759:
I have bugged many rabid .303 fans for a real source document for the .303. That would be a completely dimensioned and toleranced original British ordinance format drawing for both the chamber and cartridge. I also asked one of the major loading die companies for that same information and he sent me all he had. But his reference information was sketchy too. Now 5 or 6 years later I have never seen an official drawing that I would consider real.
There are documents that suggest that the maximum groove diameter can go up to .316 but they are not on an official ordinance drawing format.
/QUOTE]


Some of the very best information still in existence is that provided in the books by Majors E.G.B. Reynolds and
Robin Fulton, two of the most famous high power rifle shooters in British history. The following is an excerpt of their qualifications from their book "Target Rifle Shooting", 1972, Barrie and Jenkins, London, England 200 p.

I strongly recommend their books to anyone wishing to make any .303 SMLE or .303 ammo do its best in their own hands.

The following is written by Lord Cottesloe, G.B.E., T.D., D.L., Chairman of the National Rifle Association of Great Britain...

---------------------------

"Edward Reynolds served in the first World War in France with the 11th Bn, the Rifle Brigade. In World War Two he served on the staff of the Sniper Wing of the Small Arms School at Bisley. He was fourteen years a technical officer of the Small Arms School at Bisley on the Directorate of Armaments headquarters staff, dealing chiefly with the inspection and development of small arms, in particular, rifles. He was closely concerned with the inspection and development of the No. 4 (Lee
Enfield) Rifle.

"Rifle shooting has been his hobby for over 50 years. Full bore (hi-power)international honours include the Kolapore, the National, the McKinnon, the World Championship and the Britannia Shield matches. Small bore international honours include the Dewar
Trophy Match (10 times), the Pershing Trophy, the Lord Wakefield, and the World Championship Matches (Grenada 1933 and Stockholm 1947).

"Major Reynolds has also written The Lee-Enfield Rifle, a history of a famous rifle from first designs to the present day."



"Major R. A. Fulton, T.D. Robin Fulton represents the third generation of a family that has a unique connection to rifle target-shooting. He followed his father into the family's gunsmith business, which was founded by his grandfather in the days when the NRA held its annual meeting (shooting tournaments" at Wimbledon. All three bear the distinction of having won the King's or Queen's prize for rifle shooting; Arthur Fulton, the author's father being the only person to achieve this on three occasions.


"During the 1939-45 War, he became a Small Arms Technical Officer, qualifying in this capacity at the Military College of Science. He served for two and a half years with the Australian Army, and was concerned with the development and trial of a wide variety of small arms.

"In addition to winning the Queen's Prize in 1958 and being second in 1959, Robin Fulton has seventeen 'King's or Queen's Hundred' badges to his credit. He has won the Duke of Gloucester's Prize, the Grand Aggregate Silver Cross twice, the Daily Mail prize three times, and many other first prizes including the Canadian Grand Aggregate on two occasions. He has been the champion shot of Surrey four times, has represented Great Britain in Empire, Kolapore and Palma matches, and has been in British touring teams to Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Rhodesia, and the World Championships....."

If you want to know about SMLEs or .303s I again urge you to purchase all of their books, which are an authoritative history of the beasts and how to regulate & use them properly.

A bit more on Lee-Metford & Lee-Enfield .303s...

According to the above mentioned E.G.B. Reynolds, when the Lee Metford ("long Lee") rifle was first adopted officially into British service, the barrels had 7 grooves, left hand twist, and were 30.2" long. The bore diameter was .303", and the grooves were a uniform .004" deep. Rifling was of the Metford type (segmental rifling).


When the No.4 SMLE was officially adopted, the barrel length was shortened to 25 & 3/16th", with 5 left hand twist grooves of the Enfield (spiral) type, and the same 10" twist. Bore diameter (land diameter) was still .303" but the grooves tapered in depth from .065"" at the breech end to .004" at 14" from the muzzle. In other words, the land diameter remained the same, but the groove diameter tightened its grip as the bullets passed through the bore.

The interesting thing about the No.4s is that from the outset measuring the groove diameter at the breech end on new rifles would make us think that the barrel was badly worn, as we are not used to barrels with grooves which are .0025" larger at the breech than at the muzzle.


There were many slight changes in the No. 4 SMLE rifles over the years, but I will not try to detail them all here. For that I recommend Major Reynolds's book "The Lee-Enfield Rifle", 1960, Herbert Jenkins, London, 224 p.

What is important to the cast bullet shooter is that for best accuracy from a factory-barreled SMLE he should probably start his search with cast bullets at least .316" in diameter or, to make certain of no gas cutting from blow-by, maybe even .317". (And he shouldn't be afraid to try .318" cast bullets either.)

In case you were wondering, over 1,000,000 SMLEs were manufactured in the United States by Savage and its subsidiary Stevens. The ones made by Stevens have a C added to their serial numbers, which stands for Chicopee Falls, Mass. All of those were stamped "U.S. Property".

Both the pure Savage, and the Stevens-made No. 4s have 6 groove rifling.

Almost another million No. 4 rifles were manufactured at the factory in Long Branch near Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Almost all the No. 4s made in England were turned out by government arsenals at the Royal Small Arms Factories at Enfield Lock, Maltby (Yorkshire), Fazakerly (Lancashire), and Shirley (near Birmingham and run by BSA).