Yesterday, I fine young gentleman walked into my rustic gunsmith shop. He had in his hand a rifle that belonged to his grandfather. The only markings are: Top of barrel - "C. Gebert Munchen", Right side of barrel - "STAHL", Left side of barrel - "GUSS". There is a proof mark on the lower right flat, a large "V" under a crown. Anybody out there know of this maker, what STAHL and GUSS mean, and where I might get information on the value up this rifle? Built on a Martini action. Octagon barrel, heavy engraving, armpit hook, double set triggers wrapped in a huge curlique lever. All in all, a very nice rifle. Chambered in 9.5x47R. He had three cartridges. Made from 45-70 brass and the neck sizer was there as well. Thanks, Mike

Stahl = steel. My old German rifle has 'Bohler Stahl' - the barrel steel made by Bohler Steel Co.
I think there was a gunsmith by the name Stahl also.But Gebert here is the gunsmith.

Hi Mike,
Gebert was court gunsmith in munich. "Stahl" and "Guss" means "steel" and "cast". The older barrels are made from casted steel. The "V" with crown, I mean, is an old Reich´s proof mark befor 1900. But I will ask my dad next week, he´s the expert.
The 9,5x47R is one of the many different German target rounds, based on the the first German Infantery round, the 11,15x60R Mauser, loaded with black powder. Many different round were created with bullet diameters between 8mm and 12mm. Bertram brass is making empty cases for the 9,5x47R.
Like in the USA with many different target rounds from Sharps, Remington, Wesson, Bullard, Ballard, Stevens, Winchester ans many more, in Germany also every gunsmith made own target rounds for special target rifles with martini actions or other vertical breech block systems, like the Ayth or others. Most time, the rounds are based on the 11,15x60R. The only round, that´s still alive, but out of commercial production, is the 8,15x46R. Only a handfull of German marksmen are shooting 100m off hand with their "Feuerstutzen".


Martin

Thanks, fellas. You have helped narrow my search. Mike

BigBoreFan, Can you give me more info on Mr. Gebert or where to look? I ran a Google search and found nothing on him.
Thanks, Mike

Mike:

Various styles of Scheutzen rifles regularly are listed on Gunsamerica.com, Gunbroker.com and Auctionarms.com. Check to see what's sold in the last 12 months or so and how it compares to the rifle you have in hand. That will give you a reasonable range as an estimate.

One thing that adds to the value of the rifle is the rear sight. Many of these rifles had tang mounted peep sights and a significant number of them arrived in the U.S. without the sight. If there's a raised square hole in the tang, the peep sight is missing. They're expensive to replace ($150+), if you can find one that fits at all.

They really are works of art as much as shooters.

If you really are interested, there's a three volume set of books on these things, the name of which escapes me at the moment. Either Ray Riling or Gunnerman Books should have it.

Rem

quote:

Originally posted by Mike in Michigan:
BigBoreFan, Can you give me more info on Mr. Gebert or where to look? I ran a Google search and found nothing on him.
Thanks, Mike

There's a tech museum in Munich ("Munchen") that may have record of a Gebert. But there were many small makers in Bavaria, and many of them were in Munchen.

Sorry Mike,
but I cann´t find any more about Gebert. But next week, I´ll see my dad and maybe he have informations.

Martin

These folks may help

http://www.germanguns.com/

Thanks richj. I have to pick a tire for my tractor this morning and will see where that site gets me tonight. The rifle is complete, rear sight and all.

There is more than one type of 9.5 x 47R Schuetzen case. If the lad has 3 45/70 cases altered to fit the rifle, those are the best clue as to just what cartridge is proper for the rifle. Next, how thick is the rim and does the face of the breech block require a Mauser A type of case head and rim? Many of the 9.5 mm barrels will handle cast bullets made for the .38/55 & .38/56. You need a cast of the chamber, the throat & leade, and about an inch of the barrel to tell you what is what. Once the cases are formed, those old rifles are easy on brass. No fancy loading tools needed. Just a de-&-recapper and a bullet mould. RMC brass costs about the same as Bertram. Try Dave Casey first.

waterman

Today, I found a old book about gunsmithing, printes 1954. In the part "proof marks" I found the "V" under the crown. The book means that´s a british proof mark. German proof marks from this time, are other looking.


Martin

Thanks gang.
I'm waiting for reply from the German Gun Collectors site for info on Mr. Gebert. Despite my urging, I doubt the present owner will ever be shooting this, or any other firearm, due to personal reasons. At least he understands the historical value of it. I recently heard, too late of course, of a nearby gun hater (young female Obama supporter) that took a pile of inherited firearms to the local police station and dumped them off to "keep them out of the hands of criminals".
Mike