Ahh, I had another session Teusday, I could not tell about it as my laptop is on its way to HP for some work. I have been shooting it more than i had thought, but no real range work so no real progress. I am now up to 1865 fps with the modern mini in the shotcups, filling the bases really helps and I look forward to having the base plug machined down, I should be able to replace it easily if that doesn't go well. Anyway, i really like the solid bases when using the shotcups. I have still not received the .62 cal bullets.

Tuesdays session went well for the three shots i fired. I forgot my cleaning rod and so I put in the loosest fitting case i had and shot at the 100 yard target. It was the last of my shoot-n-see sight-in targets and we were to be shooting the .270s. I was feeling a little goofy and put the versa-pod (which i bought to shoot the .270 off of) on the 20... adjust the legs, cradle the stock against my shoulder, ease up on the target, breath, let out, squeeze...the world shook: I was quite alright because I had a good connection with the stock but lost sight of the target. The versa-pod came off its stud and some things on the table fell off and my ears were ringing. I looked down at the target and could not find where i had hit it...except that the center dot on the sight in target looked funny. I will have to cut and paste this in the lucky shots thread, but I punched out the center. It wasn't perfectly centered, but close enought for me not to notice until i got close to the target. I got a couple of rounds off before getting one of the cases that I had used several times: bad form, i know. I have a new batch on the way and when these come in, i will send one to CH4D to have a sizing die made. I will have a small batch made later to see how rifle primers work.

Ok don't laugh, but....


I was looking around for a 12 gauge Ultra Slug Hunter to do some modern 12 bore experimentation and glanced at the 20-gauge version, which would fit my Handi-Rifle frame. I peeked at it for a moment and wondered if .62 would really be all that bad. I could do my experimenting and maybe let them fit a Buff Classic tube at the same time. I grabbed a hull and measured the base diameter. I knew that a 577-450 fit loosely in the chamber of my LT-20 so glancing at my Illustrated Reference of Cartridge Dimensions, I noticed that 600 Nitro Express is very close and is a 3� case. The 20-gauge Ultra Slug Hunter, I believe, is chambered for 3� shells, which is the open measurement of the hull meaning a 3� chamber. I am concerned about the sloppy fit of a tapered case in a straight chamber, but a bore-rider seated out would center the cartridge even though the sloppy fit would waste the brass. At 45 bucks per 10 (Horneber, Bertram is twice that) I would hate to not have a good fit to the chamber, but it is an intriguing idea. The idea of cast bullets with deep grease grooves and narrow bands (to allow it to crush down and fit the bore) in fire-formed brass might work. I wish I could find one with an un-cut chamber. I would like to get a look at the chamber and throat of one of these. Any thoughts?

Just for the record, I am uncertain of the pressures the 600 Nitro operates at and would not dream of loading anything into a Handi that it could not take. Nor do I dream of shooting elephants with this. I simply see this barrel and think it is deserving of something better than the current crop of 20 gauge loads.

The 600 Nitro, just like most of the big-case British express rifle calibers, operates at very low (relatively speaking!!) pressures. The reason for this is twofold: One, it makes extraction easier, and more reliable in hot tropical climates; Two, double rifle actions are (USUALLY!!) not up to handling extremely heavy backthrust that many higher pressure rounds generate.



That said, it is NOT likely that you will equal 600 Nitro ballistics with a shotgun! There are a couple of things working against you. The 600 Nitro's bullet is about twice the weight of a 12-Ga shotgun slug, and the recoil of such a load, if the gun would hold it, would kill the shooter. A .600 Nitro weighing in at 13 pounds generates 120 ft/lb of recoil. If you lowered the gun weight to 7.5 pounds, the recoil would be over 200 ft/lb.!!



However, there's no reason why one coul;d not develop a 20-ga. shotgun slug load that outclasses the Foster type. Indeed, I believe some of the new sabot-type slug loads that one can use in the 20-ga rifled slug guns are just about what you are looking for! These load seem to make a 20-ga. into a .60 caliber rifle for sure!

I am going ahead and ordering the barrel and will be getting some cases from Rocky Mountain Cartridge, LLC; that will withstand greater pressures than the plastic hulls and allow me to seat the bullets out. Being turned brass, I can get them made to accept components that could be loaded into plastic hulls for conventional loads. I will be looking at going somewhere in between, doing a heavy 20. It takes a special fore-end, so I could add weight there, it will be about 9 lbs stone stock but some more could be added. We have gone through the issue pretty well over at Big Bores. I will probably go with heavy bullets but just not near the velocity of the 600.

Well, let us know what the shooting results are, how you loaded it, recoil, etc. etc. I have always thought it would be fun to work up a pure lead round ball load for a 12 or a 20-ga. rifled-bore shotgun.

Sounds good, I sent the handi-rifle frame back to have the 20 barrel fitted yesterday. I will be contacting Rocky Mountain to order some brass and for insight on using their brass. Twist is 1 turn in 28 inches, a good bit fast for roundball. Liberty Shooting Supplies sells 830gr RNFP 600 Nitro bullets individually. I may try a few but no more than I would be shooting the heavies, I might try paper patching .577 bullets that they offer in 555 gr and 890 gr and would show me the right paper to patch Barnes SGS slugs (.575" dia, 1 oz. copper x-bullet). I will also experiment with Lyman slugs and patched foster slugs...not all at once, though. I want to start with a few of the Nitro bullets and maybe some high velocity sabot experiments. I wonder how the bullets will take to the rifling. I am told that modern sabot-shooting rifling is too shallow for lead slugs though it has been theorized that those thin slug gun barrels are to blame. This barrel will not be too thin, so we shall see what those lead bullets can do. If the foster slug mould ever come around, I will try to get some extra base plugs so I can mill some down to cast solids... in the spirit of nostalgic goofiness, a paper patched hollow-pointed round nose sitting atop a long brass case would look cool on the reloading bench no matter how fast or slow they go.

The 12 offers a greater variety of projectiles and a 1 turn in 35" twist; but for what I am doing, saving a bill makes quite a difference.

45LC-If working up loads with the 830 gr bullets, you
could take some wt of the front of the bullet to work your loads up.Exactly how what diameter or thicknee will your barrel b? Ed

I tried to call and ask bore diameter today and called too late. Time zone thing. Yes, the 830 could be hollowpointed to lighten it and I certainly have that in mind. Which reminds me, I have a Foster trimmer, I might ought to check to see if I can get a collet for it to use it to hollowpoint the bullets. I do have a tiny lathe with which I could do it, so that may not be necessary.

I do want to match the ID of the turned brass to that of the groove dia. Chamfering the mouth will allow me to load cast or paper patched projectiles slightly over groove dia but fit tight enough not to require a crimp. This is all theoretical right now. I have zero experience aside from hotrodding my 45-70.

Anyway, when I call, I will ask barrel thickness too.

If you find a bullet that works well, perhaps you could get NEI or some custom maker to make you a mould to cast a lead counterpart. At the velocities you will be working with, it should be no problem to get a cast slug to shoot well. Then you could make them as hard or as soft as you want by varying alloys and heat-treatment.

What's the legal end here... aren't you making a destructive device?

I'm not making anything. NEF offers a 20 gauge rifled bull barrel for any rifle or shotgun frame other than the 10 gauge shotguns and rimfire. It is a fairly strong action and should handle a good bit more than shotgun ammo is loaded to (though not at levels we play with on smaller cartridges). I am using full length turned brass. Full-length brass has been available for some time, though maybe not turned. The only thing novel about that is the thickness of the brass. All I am doing is loading heavy 20-gauge slug (or 20 bore rifle) ammo for standard chamber dimensions. It is no more unique than Buffalo Bore 45 Colt and 45-70 ammo. I will still be able to use conventional 20-gauge slug ammo. If I want anything more exotic than what I am planning, I will simply get or build a 600 NE.

My experiment centers around the observations made by Ross Seyfried that modern rifled slug barrels are problematic due to a) shallow rifling, b) fast twist and possibly, c) thin barrel cross-section. Well, the Ultra Slug Hunter barrels are rather stiff and should work if the shallow rifling and fast twist doesn't doom the project. It appears that the twist should not be a problem and I think that paper patching might work if the shallow rifling is a problem for cast bullets. We shall see.

I spoke to a fellow at NEF and he could not tell me the chamber dimensions or other info asked for. I will just have to do a chamber cast and slug the bore. I am waiting to order the brass until I can give these dimensions to David Casey at Rocky Mountain Cartridge. That is ok; I can get some shooting impressions with some factory ammo.

One more question. Do I have anything to worry about with shotgun primers? I kinda like the idea of rifle primers but am told that 209 primers are considered more efficient. I expect to be using slower powders than typically used in shotguns but am uncertain how that will affect things. My chief concern is whether pressures would be an issue.

The 209A shotgun primers are a little stronger than the
Federal 215. Balistic Research tested the two of them
together on same loads and they gave more
pressure and velocity compared on same loading.Ed.

Primers as well as wads & other components can make a big difference in pressures. Go VERY carefully when loading shotgun shells. Please see the picture at the bottom of this post - it's a correctly loaded HEAVY shotgun slug with all components except powder. Brass shotgun shells are NOT to be compared or confused with rifle cartridges.

GET a shotgun loading manual and study the "Recipes" listed. You won't find ANYTHING remotely close to the weight of load you're considering. I don't want to discourage you, but would make a simple suggestion. BEFORE you load up your 20bore MagnumThumpers, try some Remington Premier Core-Lokt Sabot loads first. In the little NEF 20ga, a lotta' shooters are reporting groups inside 5" @ 200 yards! Of course, that's not with open sights - but with scopes. NEF Ultra-Slug guns are superbly accurate for what they're designed to do. The old .577 Nitro Express Doubles of over a hundred years ago tossed a 650gr bullet at 1950fps. Anything remotely close to that weight at far less velocity would be impressive enough. The Paradox Guns of the same era did 1,000fps and the Magnum Paradox Guns were capable of 1200fps with Nitro/Cordite Loads & Paper Hulls.

When you're ready to try your brass shell loads, clamp the shotgun down & cover it - tie a LONG string to the trigger and walk back a long ways before pulling the string on that thing. The action might not fail with the first or second shot, but overpressure loads are dangerous. Your face & hands are just too close to the action to risk serious injury...


SAAMI FIREARMS STANDARDS INSTITUTE

SAAMI sets the standards for chamber dimensions, cartridge pressures, etc. The only description you're likely to get from any firearm manufacturer is that they subscribe to SAAMI Standards in this regard.


Dixie Slugs is supposed to have their 20ga Terminator & PREDATOR slugs ready for shipment by this fall - maybe slugs you can load yourself by late summer. James sells the slugs in packs of ten (10) for loading, so you'll be able to buy slugs matched to perform in your NEF Ultra-Slug barrel.

DIXIE SLUGS TERMINATOR WEBPAGE

But... you might be making something. You won't be shooting shotgun slugs, which are exempt from DD status. You also won't be shooting somthing like an old English express round which is exempt due to sporting purposes. You'll be making something new all together, which won't be covered by either. A new, over .50 brass cased cartidge. The fact that your shooting it in a shotgun doen't really enter into it. Not that anyone would probably care, but to the letter of the law you may not be in the clear. I was lost in ATF mumbo jumbo when I fell asleep last night. Need to ook it over again awake. Dunno.

I think do do what he wants safely, he should do what we are going to do with the 12GA FH, which is to not load it with fast powders in small ammounts using wads to take up the space..But load it with ultra slow powders starting at 90% fill and use it like a big bore rifle as long as it has a heavy barrel and a heavy built brass case.. And by slow powders I don't mean 4350, but
H-5010 or WC- 870,Accurate 8700, etc.If it has a barrel like a rifle, developing loads with fast powders seems
like a headache we don't need. Ed.

Exactly, I am looking at using very slow powders. LoadTech is on the way and should give me an idea of what powder to use. Once I get some brass, I can determine exact capacity(I will have some bullets before the brass comes and so I can figure up COAL and everything) and have starting loads derived. I've been wanting a chrony for a long time and will have one before I start working up loads.

Load Tech won't show you anything that they could not get out of printed loading books or data. It won't allow you to pick the powder and charge you want or change variables like Quickload will. Just my opinion. It wouldn't come up with win 296 for a suggested powder for alot of 44mag loads. If it isn't in the suggested powder list, it won't let you put it in. It also gives you different velocity estimations with the same powder charge when you change the pressure range. Too me it seems that they pluged in a bunch of points, then had Excell do a best fit curve , then they extrapolate off of a point for estimates.
I already wasted my money.

These are just my thoughts.
some people may like it.
They were very professional, curteous and prompt.
I just think that the product is )(*&*&%$&^$*

I've just found out about LoadTech not being able to plug in powders that aren't recommended by the program; it came in today. It did seem to do some nice things on some 45-70 loads I have been doing but need a chronograph to check it. I won't complain here because I have not complained to them yet. They are professional and courteous, so I will see what I can do.



[edit] I should not say "complain", these querks are only deficiencies if that is something the program was not designed to do. In some cartriges, there is a wide selection of powders listed but in others, it is rather thin. We shall see; and I am not completely discouraged. I will toy with figuring common loads at low pressures for now to see if that will be an issue.

WOW!! What a bullet!! But at .729" that's almost a 10-Ga., isn't it?