A couple of fellows at the range have Sharps ".45-90" rifles. Both have decided to use cast bullets of ca. 535 grains weight, with 5744 powder. One in particular is getting bloody wretched awful performance from his. (Like 14" sprays, not groups, at 50 yards...) Most of his bullets arrive point-on, but some are completely sideways...sporadic keyholing...

His bullet metal is lead alloyed with enough WW metal to bring hardness to about same as 1-in-10 tin-lead alloy. He is sizing to .459" diameter.

I have tried to suggest other propellants, making a cast of his chamber throat to find its size, and several other things, but he doesn't want to listen because I am "not a Sharps authority".

That is true, I am most certainly not. But, a bunch of you guys ARE. So, what would you suggest or ask, is you wanted to make his Sharps .45 x 2.4" rifle really shoot?

that alloy is really damned hard, and it will be difficult to make those bullets shoot groups in lieu of patterns with velocities under 2000fps, IMHO. Try 20:1 lead/tin and about 40gr of 5744.

Rich

this sounds like the classic "wrestling with a pig" conundrum. After a time you are just worn out, and suddenly you realize the pig enjoys it. Tell them real Sharps rifle authorities ONLY use black powder and that they are twits! The refer them to the Shiloh Sharps website to confirm their error.

Rich

i shoot black powder 535 gr bullet 1-20 lead .
i think all 45 cal shilo,s are .459 so i use .458 or 459 with no prolbem.
these rifle,s shoot better with black powder but you can use somkeless but be careful not to ring the chamber.

Are the bullets gas checked?
I had a Shilo in .45x2.4" Sharps,shot real well,my bison load was 38grains 5744 with a gas checked 480 grain 1-30 lead bullet at about 1700fps,the only time I had bullets that did not shoot well at all was when I used bullets that were non gas checked & were not flat at the base,these were chronoed at about 1600 fps,these left a mess in the barrel & I could barely touch paper at 100 yrds.
In hind sight,If I had slowed them down to about 1200 fps or so they might have shot o.k.
It would be interesting to know what speeds these guys are shooting at? what bullet?
& how much of 5744 is being used!
A word of caution though,the rifles had better be recent productions that can take smokeless pressures!

Your bullets are too hard, the powder compounds the problem, and the make and vintage of the Sharps can also be an issue.

If it is a Farmingdale Shiloh Sharps, it probably has a 0.6" long freebore that is larger in diameter than the barrel's groove diameter. Other Shilohs will generally not have this handicap to overcome.

Soft bullets and real powder is what it will take to get that rifle shooting properly. It can be done with smokeless, but that is sorta pointless.

Brent

quote:

Like 14" sprays, not groups, at 50 yards...

What brand of Sharps we dealing with? I'm thinking an early model Italian IAB which had a 0.452 bore. Put hard cast 459's through that with smokeless and you would probably get that result. They were, I think, 1:24 twist rather than 1:18 twist to suit the 535gn bullet.

If a Shiloh or other modern make, send it back to the factory, they will certainly honour their product.

First, I'd like to make it perfectly clear that I am not doing the shooting. It is NOT my rifle. I am only trying to help a guy who shoots at the range on the same days as me (every Sunday) and is driving me nuts.

In a private message to another AR replier who asked if they are experienced handloaders, I sent the foll9owing info...

"One of them is. He is an active (sometimes) jacketed bullet benchrest shooter, and he has his Sharps shooting fairly well.

The other one does not know squat about handloading of smokless powders OR Sharps rifles, but he thinks he knows everything. He is not very experienced with smokeless powders, but has had fair success in the past with black in the same rifle. He is the one shooting the miserable sprays.

I am trying to help him by funneling info about things he might consider, through his friend (the benchrest shooter (who is also my friend), to him. One of his other friends, Al Perry, has suggested he use a hotter mould, to get larger diameter bullets. I suggested larger bullets the first day I saw his problem, but until Al suggested it, he pooh-poohed the idea. That's why I no longer make suggestions directly to him. I don't really like the hotter mould approach myself, because of the lead vapor point beginning between 900 & 1,000 degrees, but if that is the only way he'll do it, it's his body.

Since then has been using .460 bullets and decreased his powder charge to below book minimum, and has his 50 yard groups down to about 6".

I am not sure which lube he is using, but from his chatter, I would think it is probably SPG, which he used in his black powder loads.

Where would you suggest he start? Do you sugest any other powders, or is 5744 bulky enough and near enough correct in vburning rate to just stay with it?

How about bullet length/weight. Should the twist of that rifle fully stabilize .45 bullets of that heavy weight? How about bullet temper? Is 1-10 okay, too soft, too hard?

I'd appreciate any and all comments you my care to share.

Thanks,

AC"

(We are talking about one of the Italian clones of a Sharps, a recent one, but I'm not positive which brand. We'll probably never know the throat diameter, as he appeared to think I was a damned fool for suggesting he make a chamber/throat cast to see what the dimensions really are.

Canuck Did the info I sent help the man at the range you were trying to help ?