I received my new Winchester 1885 BPCR last week. This rifle does not come with sights and until I decide what I will be using I wanted to do a bit of load development.

I machined a one piece scope base and mounted up the oldest scope I have in my inventory. Trying to keep it close to a theme of "This Old Gun". That is a B&L Balvar 6-24 from the 1970s.

I machined the mount out of strip of 3/8" dovetail mounting stock that you can get from Brownells. My favorite Millett Angle Lock rings were used.

So avert your eyes if you are a "traditionalist"









Many more pictures here:
http://public.fotki.com/Rberta...inchester-1885-bpcr/

Hey Roy,

great rifle! I saw a Browning BPCR with vernier diopter and globe front sight her in Germany for ~2400.-€. Now, it´s sold. Not to me, I´haven´t enought money.
I have a standard High Wall, made in the mid 90´s, with an mounted Swaro 6x-scope. One of my favourite rifles I own. The High Walls are great rifles.


Martin

quote:

So avert your eyes if you are a "traditionalist"

AAAaaaahhhh....

It burns, it burns!




That's a pretty rifle.

Caliber?

Sorry........45-70

Funny. With that scope on it, and if it wasn't for the case color, I'd say the whole rifle looks like something from the 1970s.

So, what will you be going with: Aimpoint, Trijicon, or Crimson Trace?

quote:

So, what will you be going with: Aimpoint, Trijicon, or Crimson Trace?

Now that's right funny right there!

Some type of a tang sight and globe front is my quest......

Get a Soule type sight from Baldwin in Oklahoma City. That what I use on my C. Sharps Highwall in .40-65.

Steve Baldwin makes a first class sight and is great to work with. His front sight places the spirit level within the tube so you won't have glare problems.

The best sight choice will depend upon your intended use for the rifle. For paper or steel targets, I can recommend the Parts Unknown Borchardt rear peep with Hadley eye cup (winner at Raton) and the windage front globe sight of your choice.

For hunting it's a different story most of the time. You may find that you need a rear sight that's not as fragile and problematic as the Soule or even the Borchardt style and you definitely won't need the long-range capability of the tall & therefore fragile staff. I've had good results with the early Lyman windage-adjustable model 103 tang peep (pricey) and the current Marble's windage-adjustable tang model. Many examples of the current Marble's model are loose however, so it pays to examine the sight before purchase.

In my experience a globe front sight is a handicap when hunting. Poor light makes it all but unusable and even in good light I found that it slowed my target acquisition by as much as 2 seconds. IOW it took 3x longer than a large bead/blade.

Of course I hunt mainly in the East where the ranges are shorter and more occluded due to vegetation and so the time-span that the animal is visible tends to be quite a bit less than some places in the West. JMO, YMMV.
Regards, Joe

Thanks JD and Jack.........great info.

This rifle will be used mostly for paper and I want to attend and compete in a few BPCR matches around New England.

But this fall I'm going to take it to Montana and if the conditions allow it, I'd like to take an Antelope at a reasonable long range. This would be done out of our camp as my walking around gun is a TC Contender handgun in my own wildcat "The 30 Something".

For this hunt, I'd probably use the scope as I wouldn't want to wound an animal and with a scope and a laser rangefinder I can be extremely sure of my shot.

Nice looking rifle! The wood and CC look much nicer than the Browning BPCR I had for a few years. Weaver does make scope mounts (2 piece steel) for the Browning which would probably fit the Winchester. I had a scope on mine for a while but found the elevation adjustment WAY too small for the 45-70's trajectory. The old external mounts with long scopes are needed for really long ranges. I'm shooting a C. Sharps High Wall (45-70) with a Hoke long range tang sight. It's a great sight and perfect for left or right hand shooters.

Roy,

check out www.MontanaVintageArms.com for proper sights. Not cheap, but repeatable setting. They are the #1 choice of Silhouette and Long Range shooters.

I have two sets on SS rifles at this time.

Rich

So today was the first day I got out to shoot my new BPCR at the range. I loaded up some IMR4198 under a 400g and 405 grain cast bullet that I cast myself and some 405 grain Cast Precision bullets.

At 100 yards the rifle was shooting 2" groups with all three bullets, but the POI varied wildly.

I then went out to 200 yards and didn't have enough "UP" on the Burris scope to hit the paper. I had made a one piece mount for this rifle so I loosened the rear of the mount and shoved a flattened 22RF case under it and tightened it back down. Now I had plenty of UP.

My milling machine will rectify this issue this afternoon. I'll put 30 minutes of "slant" into it. Think this will be enough to get out to 500 yds with those 405 g bullets. Or should I be shooting heavier boolets?

At 200 yds the rifle was shooting 5" groups...."This ain't my 6BR!". And once again the POI was in three very different areas on the target board.

Out to 300 yards and the groups held at 5".....Strange?

Ran out of time and cartridges for 500 yards.

Tomorrow I'll return with a few different loads of smokeless and a few with BP.....

I had a Shiloh Sharps a few years back and just never got comfortable shooting that rifle. It was much lighter than this 1885 and kicked like a mule. This rifle is a pussy cat to shoot. Trigger needs a bit of love, but other than that is behaves itself nicely at the bench.

I can tell that this is going to be fun!

quote:

Or should I be shooting heavier boolets?

With that twist and caliber use 500 grain to 550 grain bullets preferably out of a Brooks or Paul Jones mould. The velocity should be about 1100 to 1300 FPS for best accuracy.

Don't be surprised if your scope jumps off that skinny rail.

You will be shocked but good loads will deliver much better groups than you have been getting. Shooters do that with the Browning versions with the factory supplier aperture sights.

You should, and will, get better accuracy as you become more familiar with this type of shooting. I believe your rifle has the same Badger barrel as the Browning and C. Sharps 1885's and it doesn't get any better than that. There are "fixes" for that trigger and a kit is available to make it adjustable.

I cast/shoot a "custom" 460g spire point at 200yds and 1 MOA (2 inch groups) are pretty common. That load is 21g of H4227 and a thin, low density foam wad. Velocity about 1165fps.

Also, you might check the fit of the forearm to the receiver. On both my Browning and C. Sharps it fit so tightly that POA changed a LOT as the barrel heated up. I only removed .010" of wood from the back of the forearm and the problem was gone.

quote:

preferably out of a Brooks or Paul Jones mould

Can you tell me which molds from the folks are preferred? I thought that going to a 500g bullet would improve things. I just can't decide on which one, and I don't want to join the "mold of the month club".......

Would it be improper to ask folks for a couple dozen sample 500g bullets that they have cast to see how they perform in my rifle?

Adjustable trigger kit? Do you have a source?

Thanks for all the advise.

I assume that your Winchester is about the same as the earlier Browning BPCR and has a Badger barrel with 1:18" twist and bore-groove of about .450"/.458". "Ready to load" bullets from Paul Jones molds (and other mold makers) are available from Buffalo Arms. I believe a box of 50 550g Paul Jones "Creedmoor" bullets was about $20 or $30. Cabellas also sells good BPCR bullets from Lyman molds.

I could not find a source for the trigger kit but Google "Browning BPCR trigger" and take a look at the ASSRA forum's discussion on the topic as there are several options. I did not make any trigger mods on my Browning because when I realized the assembly/dis-assembly difficulty of it's "lawyerized" 1885 action I sold the rifle. I shoot a lot of black powder and need to disassemble the action occasionally for complete cleaning.

Have fun, enjoy your rifle, and keep learning!

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by RoyB:

quote:

preferably out of a Brooks or Paul Jones mould

Can you tell me which molds from the folks are preferred? I thought that going to a 500g bullet would improve things. I just can't decide on which one, and I don't want to join the "mold of the month club".......

Would it be improper to ask folks for a couple dozen sample 500g bullets that they have cast to see how they perform in my rifle?

Adjustable trigger kit? Do you have a source?

Thanks for all the advise.

Hello Roy,
Some of the most popular bullets are available at Sage Outfitters

I think the Paul Jones Mini Groove (aka Money Bullet) and the Creedmoor are his two most popular in .45. However remember this. He normally will make the mould to match your rifle throating if you can supply him with a cast of the throat. That means the nose diameter and driving band can be made to optimize accuracy. The best accuracy with these bullets is usually at black power velocities even if you prefer smokeless. The bullet metal is soft so use something like 4759 (that is four seven five nine) 5744 or IMR 4227 at 1100 to 1300 fps.

Sage is running a Bin Laden is Dead Sale now but I do not think bullets are included.

I have not used any of the Sage bullets yet but I have 6 boxes of them.
I have used the Steve Brooks version of the Government 500 grain bullet in a Pedersoli and a Browning. Both shoot groups in the 1" range when me, the light and wind are all good.

The Postel bullet is popular but Lymans moulds tend to have mixed reviews. Brooks offers a Postel bullet. Jone's bullet is called a Postell.

Thanks!

I did a chamber cast, but it doesn't appear this rifle has any type of lead.....



It is .459 directly in front of the neck on this chamber cast and then 1.5" further into the barrel it is still .459

quote:

Originally posted by RoyB:
Thanks!

I did a chamber cast, but it doesn't appear this rifle has any type of lead.....



It is .459 directly in front of the neck on this chamber cast and then 1.5" further into the barrel it is still .459

You have the ancient SAAMI chamber as do most of us.
My Brooks mold is made with two .454 driving bands at the front and then they get larger with a .461 base. The tapered shape lets the bullet align itself when the trigger is pulled.

Roy/SR4759...

Thank you for posting a picture of the chamber cast. I have not made a cast of my CSA 1885 but, after taking a close look with a bright light and magnifier the lands DO end at the chamber with an obvious "bevel". I can't measure their length or angle without a cast which I will do soon. Unfortunately there is a casting flaw right at that exact spot in your picture so it's not clear to me if the chambers are different. Looking back at my old notes I see I loaded the 525g Lyman (457125) Govt. bullet with 71g of Swiss 1 1/2fg, .030" wad, to a OAL (bullet just off the lands) of 2.930". The Paul Jones Creedmoor was 69g Swiss 1 1/2fg, .030" wad, OAL (just off the lands) of 2.957". I've never given it much thought but I doubt those two bullets could be seated out that far in a standard 45-70 chamber. My rifle is CSA's silhouette model with a heavy, 30", full octagon #4 barrel. Maybe this model has a different chamber? I SHOULD know this and will find out for sure soon.

Being relatively new at BP Cartridge loading, last night I attempted to load some Goex BP Cartridge grade power.

70 g of this powder does not leave much space for a wad and a 500g bullet. Now I did not use a drop tube. And everything I read says you must use a drop tube. I'm going to build one today out of an arrow shaft and an aluminum funnel.

But even with a drop tube it looks like 60 g of BP might be all that I'll be able to fit.

You need to compress the BP with a compression die, available from several sources. About 1/3" (0.300") or so will get you in the ballpark.
Regards, Joe

Drop tube use is important. Charge a case with and without it and see the difference. IMO, .300" is a LOT of compression for most black powders but I've never used Goex Ctg. The most compression I've used with Swiss 1 1/2fg is .125". Use a good BP bullet lube (I "pan lube" w/o sizing) that keeps the fouling soft and use a blow tube if necessary in very dry weather. You should be able to seat the bullet in the case with moderate finger pressure and, of course, no crimp. I "bell" the case mouth enough that when the cartridge is chambered it scrapes the chamber wall a bit. This centers the bullet, removes some fouling from the previous shot, and helps prevent more fouling getting back into the chamber.

You can make a close fitting bullet length "slug" of metal or hardwood to compress the powder using the seating die. And, you will probably have to make a larger dia. expander plug as the ones that come with the die set are for jacketed bullets and too small. Forcing these soft bullets into the case will size them down several thou. and ruin accuracy.

Look forward to hearing how it goes. BTW, what bullet will you be using?

Well, I got to the range this AM.......Had four different loads........

Two with Goex Cartridge powder and two with Pyrodex RS......I will be buying some Swiss FF as I read that is the "go to" powder for cartridge shooting.

The difference between the two loads was one used .30 wads and one used .60 wads. I had them so I figured I'd use them.....

All loads were 60g of BP under a 325 Beartooth GC bullet.

Results?

My time at the range was horrible. At 100 yards the best group was 9"!!!, This with a 18X scope!

I cleaned the gun thoroughly and tried some smokeless (RL-7) under the same bullets and with nearly identical velocity.........Groups were just under 2".....So I know it's not the gun, scope or shooter. It's my BP loads.

I've got lots to learn.....But that's the fun of it!

With BP, plain-base bullets cast of very soft lead alloy will give the best accuracy. The abrupt blow of the BP serves to obturate the bullet's base and thereby gives a better gas seal and, apparently, a squarer and more accurate bullet base. 30:1 and even 40:1 have proven to be good alloys in BPCRS competition.
Regards, Joe

For my 45-90 and 45-70 I use a cast lead bullet of 30:1 alloy with a proper black powder lube. All loads are first dropped tubed and then compressed as necessary. Target loads use a slip fit bullet over a card or LDPE wad and are seated just off the lands. This leaves exposed lube grooves. Hunting loads seat the bullet to cover the lube grooves with enough neck tension to hold the bullet. A successful hunting load of several friends is 70grs ffg drop tubed and compressed to seat the Lyman or SAECO gvt type bullet with a single newspaper or card wad over the powder. In my Trapdoor I use a firm crimp, in the modern rifles just neck tension. To keep from resizing the bullet when seating the case neck should be expanded to only 0.001 to 0.002" under bullet diameter. If using Starline cases try annealing before loading as they are often very hard and don't release well.

My 2 cents.

Jerry Liles

Roy...those are some strange results! I can't imagine how wads could effect the performance of a GC bullet. Wads, of any kind, should be unnecessary if a GC is used. My guess is that the hard GC bullet is not filling the grooves and allowing all kinds of crud and flame to get around the bullet. A slightly too small bullet would not be as damaged by smokeless but fit is critical with BP.

As J.D. Steele and Jerry Liles point out...you need to use a soft lead/tin alloy bullet of groove diameter or .001" larger if accuracy with BP is the goal. Try some Paul Jones Creedmoor bullets from Cabellas, load with BP as discussed, and I think you'll happy with the results.