I've been thinking of a 7-30 rifle barrel for my old (pre G2) Contender for my daughter. She turns 10 this year which means next year she's eligible for youth hunts in AZ. The difficulty with her will be that she's left eye dominant (just discovered it with her eye exam), so the route I was going with (bolt gun mod 7 CDL) is not an option.

I already have the contender, but don't have what I consider a suitable bbl for her. Most of mine are pistol bbls, and the smallest is 30-30.

So I was thinking of a scoped 7-30 rifle bbl with a 120 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip for the very small whitetails we have here in AZ. I prefer her to use a rifle package for better handling than a pistol bbl.

If she draws an elk tag, I don't know what I'll do. I do have an old Van Horn 45-70 bbl, but that would really pound her, and I wouldn't do that to her. Maybe a 30-30 bbl blown out to AI and a 165gr?

I've never shot the 375 JDJ, but I think the recoil will be too much for her, even in a rifle bbl.

What's a good elk bbl for her that won't pound her in the Contender? I'm not against a semi-custom Van Horn or SSK type "off the shelf" custom bbl. What do you guys use? I havn't looked at Contender bbls in a long time and it seems like TC used to offer more calibers then.

Thanks.

The 6.5 JDJ is a really light kicker that kills all out of proportion to the caliber. Most popular JDJ caliber after the 375, I think. No flies on the 30-30 or 7-30, either.

45-70 in a Contender pounds pretty hard.

For small deer, the .25-35 should be adequate and it wouldn't kick much. I've been considering getting one for my son. If the hunting is short range, the .357 carbine would do. Fox Ridge is the least expensive route there.

For elk, I don't see how you can avoid a heavy kick in such a light rifle. Of the T/C offerings, the .375 Win (bull barrel) or .35 Rem might fill the bill. Come to think of it, the .44 Mag with Partitions I've seen recommended for use to 100 yd and should kick a bit less than those two. Or let her use the wee .25-35 and back her up with a more potent bolt gun yourself. As mentioned by tiggertate, SSK has the 6.5 JDJ which has been used on such animals. They also chamber for the .30-40, but noting that T/C won't chamber for it, I'd handload conservatively.

Frankly, a new Handi rifle is cheaper than a T/C carbine barrel. I just purchased an SSK barrel, and I know you can buy at least two Handi's for the price (not the same quality!, of course).

tiggertate,

Do you have any ballistics on the 6.5 JDJ? I don't remember seeing any info on that one. Is that one also on the 444 case? I was looking into the 25 X 30-30 AI also. Anyone shoot that one?

asdf,

Yes the 25-35 would also be interesting, maybe AI? I know what you mean about the recoil in a light gun. I have 375 Win, 45-70, and 30-30 handgun bbls, I also have a 45 colt and 45-70 rifle bbls, none of which I would let her shoot, well maybe the 45 colt bbl. I'd like to take a look at the 6.5 JDJ numbers, that sounds good. For an AZ youth hunt, the "adult" is not allowed to take a firearm along, it must be the youth that does the shooting, which is fine by me anyway.

Do you have a link address for Fox Ridge?

Thanks for all the replies. It's also a good idea about the Handi Rifle, it's just that to be honest, I was wanting an "excuse" to take the old Contender out and play with it. Other than an occasional Javelina, I've only played around with it and haven't used it for hunting. I was also looking for an excuse for handloading a new interesting caliber.

Slim. Has your daughter taken and passed the Hunter Education course? If not, she won't be eligible to hunt in AZ, at least for this year.
Also, she must be 10 years old at the date of graduation.
Right now, in the class that I'm teaching in, we are holding up graduation day by one day so one child will be 10 years old at the date of graduation.
If you've already put in for tags, they were issued a while back. If for leftover tags, and you get one, if she hasn't done a Hunter Ed course, you'd best find one fast or she won't be allowed to hunt big game.
You can go to the Arizona Game & Fish website and see if there is a class available for her to take.
Paul B.

Paul B,

As I posted, she turns 10 this year, so that by next hunt draw (June 07), she will be eligible. I just would just like to sort all this out in advance, have the gun/caliber/load "set" in time for her to get lots of good practice in, so she can hit what she aims at with confidence.

Thanks for the post.

<Edit-I should mention that as soon as she turns 10 (Nov), I'll be enrolling her in a hunter ed class.> Thanks.

S.S.: Fox Ridge's page with their barrel offerings is here.

There are two 6.5 JDJ offerings. One is a necked up and blown out .225 Win; the other is nearly the same but based on the .30-30 case. Jones has written he gets better case life with the .225 version, and he prefers it for that reason. You might find more on their site. JDJ chamberings for the Contender of 30 caliber and up are based on the .444 case.

The 6.5/30 is an old idea, and Bullberry offers their own variant along with a 6 and a .25 all on the .30-30 case (I believe).

SSK offers load data for their JDJ line. Frankly, it looks a bit hot to me. Bullberry also offers data for their line.

I've been playing with these cases in the Powley Computer and in QuickLOAD. The 6.5 might send a 140 gn bullet at 2300 fps (24" bbl, .30-30 pressures, long throat), the .25 120 at 2400, and the 6 115 gn RN (Barnes) to 2450. The 6.5 might even manage 2400 fps. Consider the 7-30 Waters can make 2400 with that bullet weight, so a slower powder with a longer barrel could do the same in 6.5.

Of these, I'm most attracted to the .25 Bullberry for deer. Nosler offers a 120 gn Partition, which could give a bit of insurance should bone be found. However, for elk, experienced hunters seem to shy away from anything less than 6.5 bore. Do you think your daughter could take the .44 Mag with 250 gn Keiths? Recoil shouldn't be much worse than the .30-30.

I was referring to the 225 Win based version. A conventional 140 gr bullet will run somewhere around 2400 in most 24" barrels. That weight 6.5 has a great sectional density and penetrates better than the 140 gr 7 mm but either is enough. The 6.5 kicks a little less.

Quickload gave me 2468 fps with the 140 Hornady and 30.4 grains of IMR 4895. Pressure was 46,600; about 3000 under SAMMI max.

I forgot to mention a European number you might find at Bullberry or the like, namely the 6.5x50R, based on the reasonably available 5.6x50R brass (HDS has it), which is sort of a rimmed .222 Rem Mag necked out. The case is smaller in diameter, but this allows for higher pressures while staying within the limits of the Contender action. Performance should be just behind the 6.5/30, and the case reforming is a simple blowing out of the neck. You might, of course, be able to fireform 6.5/30 from .25-35 brass, and the 6.5 JDJ is certainly a simple blowing out job as well.

Concider the .357 maximum in a rifle barrel.
You can train for pennies with .38 special ammo. Work up to .357 mag stuff and finally the Maximum loads for deer and elk.
The 180 grain loads for deer will work very well and be good to 200+ yards. 200 gr Hornaday pistol bullet should be a prime elk load, properly placed.
That's the hard part for a youngster. Hitting properly. With her "Max" she will have an easy shooting rifle that she isn't afraid of and shoots well. JMHO

I really appreciate all the info. It's been a long time since I looked at Contender calibers, and I'm definately out of date on what's out there. If anyone has anything more to add, I would be all ears (so to speak). I think so far I'm interested in 7-30 Waters, 6 X 30-30, 25 X 30-30, 6.5 JDJ (I'm a little confused on it having 2 different "parent" cases), or just the 30-30 itself. Ease of case forming has me interested in the 30-30 parent case, I wonder about chamber pressure in the 225 Win case?

I look forward to reading more about the availible calibers, keep it coming if you have it.

Thanks.

The .225 is rated at 50,000 CUP, and I don't think T/C has never offered that cartridge in the Contender -- perhaps someone who's been shooting T/Cs longer than I can verify this for you. In the case body, the .225 differs from the .30-30 in having a smaller diameter rim. The brass is heavier (I've read), and it takes more reloads before it gets too thin near the head, which would be why the JDJ line uses it in preference to the .30-30 case. I recall reading that the 6.5 JDJ was so popular, there were requests to make the same performance in the cheaper .30-30 case, and he did so, perhaps reluctantly. The two are not interchangeable, but they will deliver about the same performance.

The .375 Win also has a 52,000 CUP rating and is the same case OD. However, CUP doesn't convert simply to psi, and it's psi that breaks a rifle action. It may be that in T/C's tests, the .375's true pressure was just within limits but the .225 Win's was just out of them. Also, the straight case may not stress the action as much as a bottleneck does; I'm not certain. Regardless, T/C doesn't offer the .225, and I do think JDJ is pushing the limits with his line.

There's all sorts of exotic chamberings you could use in the Contender. The European 7x72R could (nearly) deliver 7x57 performance, but now you're talking about expensive brass, new reamers, etc.

Since many of the cases for the Contender are fairly small in diameter, trying to get a high SD "elk" bullet can, at standard COLs, eat into case capacity quite a bit. For a semi-custom approach, you could chamber a 7-30 with an extra long throat (fairly inexpensive to do) and load up 175 gn RN bullets. You should be able to get over 2200 fps from the 24" T/C barrel, which while hardly an elk cannon, should give a bit more reliable penetration than the factory .30-30 loads.

Look over the listings at T/C. They are the least expensive source of barrels, and their offerings cover the range from varmints through small deer through to elk. Take your pick. Bullberry and SSK offer more expensive options, letting you indulge in the desire for something different. SSK is willing to stretch the limits on pressure + case size further.

Being a long time 'Tender nut I can attest to the multitude of chamberings available in both custom shop and factory offerings. If I were building an all around bg rifle for a young person and wanted max horse power with the least recoil I would go 30-30 AI or 7-30. This would still only get you to the "marginal" for elk stage. I don't have a 6.5 JDJ (you have to like case forming for this one)...I am sure that it is adequate but nothing "leaps and bounds" above the other two. Anything smaller steps directly out of the elk picture....anything bigger is probably too much recoil.

OK, here's some more to re-enforce my leaning towards the .357 Max. Remember, this is for a youngster, not us old timer's. He or she need's shooting practice, not reloading bench time. Cheap .38's to learn on, roll cans and kill ground squirrels..etc..on up the power curve to the max itself. Anything you'd use a .35 rem on you can turn the Max on as well. Die's ? Use your .357 mag dies..can you say carbide..? Buy a mag barrel and have the chamber extended..cheap.
OK, here's a web site that say's it better than I can.
http://specialtypistols.ottllc.com/sp10.html

My kids never cared for the Contender set up as a carbine as it was hard for them to open. Since you'll be shooting and hunting with your daughter perhaps that is not an issue. I'll guess more than a few elk have fallen to the 30/30 over the years so I think your 7-30 or 30 WCF idea is about as good as you're going to get for now. Just get really close and hold out for a nice broadside. The current 23 inch bull barrel will be about as heavy as she'll want to carry. Upgrade the youth model stock with a serious recoil pad and maybe a little lead (for balance and reduced recoil). Give some thought to installing a Harris bipod. It's ugly but anything that helps a new shooter get solid hits keeps them interested (and it adds a little more weight out front). Practice with light bullet handloads. Come the season if she can handle a 170 gr factory load she's all set. Finally, with the money you save by buying a factory barrels you might even be able to spring for a 22 rimfire barrel to practice with.

My standard first gun for my grandchildren has been a T/C Contender carbine with a .22LR barrel and either a .30-30 or 7-30Waters bbl. More than the specific cartridge (though I prefer the 7/30), the load is more important. I've used 120gr Ballistic Tips in the 7/30 and 125gr BTs in the .30-30. Both kill deer very effectively. For elk at CLOSE range, I use either Nosler Partitions or Barnes X in 140 or 150gr respectively.

To start her out (and I'm doing this with one of my granddaughters right now), use the lightest bullet available for caliber and cast bullet loading data. Heck, if you can find .30 carbine 110gr cast bullets, these are great. Also start at 25-50yds. Recoil is light and they can see the bullet holes with the low-powered scopes.

What is interesting is that parents and others want to shoot these little hummers and use them hunting!

The .30-30 WCF has killed many elk over the years.

as i have a m70 in .225 win, i like the cartridge.. and have lots of brass... i had a 10" TC contender barrel in .256 win mag... it shot well, but outside of a jackrabbit , it never killed anything except paper... jimmy mitchell in breckenridge had a 225 reamer... so i rechambered to .256/.225...... performance is nearly the same as the old savage .250-3000...rcbs makes the dies... i lost my set in a move, but i still have lots of loaded ammo....it has taken whitetail does at short range, less than 40 yds, several javelinas, and is very accuate with mild recoil....

I just got a 25 /225 Improved from Van Horn in a 22" bbl. that I plan on using for whitetail. Just been to the range once so not much to report yet but he offers some other calibers on the 225 case, some "improved" some not. You may want to look at his offerings. I also shoot a 7-30 that more than one young person has taken their first deer with and I like that caliber too. Good luck!
Nimrod 308

Slim,
Lots of good advice here, but I'll muddy the water some by recommending something different that the other recs. If you're mainly iterested in small deer, I'd consider the 300 Whisper (or 300/221 when bought from someone other than SSK Industries). A number of different 'smiths will chamber barrels for this round, including SSK. At one time, T/C offered it as a factory round, although I believe only in the handgun. A round based on the 5.6X50R Magnum also has much merit, but brass availability/cost can be an issue. I have a 6X50R Bellm that is a wonderful round. Hirtenberger brass is poor quality. RWS brass is high quality, but expensive ($1/piece). Asdf, who is "HDS" and how might I contact them to check on 5.6X50R brass?

There are a lot of virtues to the idea of a Contender as a youth gun. You can start w/ a youth stock then move to an adult stock as the child gets older. The Contender rifle is very handy and light. The Contender has number of desirable traits that make it very safe. If your daughter has difficulty opening the action on her own, as did my son, just buy Mike Bellm's device to assist opening the action (http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=43). It works very well.

My 12" Contender barrel for this round gets 2250 fps w/ the 125 Nosler BT and is very deadly. I bought a 20" 300/221 Contender barrel to be my son's first deer rifle when he was 9 years old. (No need to go into the details, but I ended up buying him a Savage bolt action in 308 Win the next year.) I suspect you could get 2400-2500 fps from a rifle 300/221. So loaded, the round would be very effective on deer. (My son ended killing 4 deer the past 2 years w/ the same bullet in a 308 Win at similar velocity.) Pre-loaded ammo is available from Cor-Bon for the 300 Whisper. The brass is easily formed from 221 Fireball brass. You can also buy actual 300 Whisper brass from SSK cheaper than you can 221 FB brass. Hornady makes the 300 Whisper dies, but I believe you can only buy them from SSK. Redding also sells 300/221 dies. The round has much less muzzle blast than most other rounds previously mentioned as it uses 1/2 as much powder. JD recs the 125 gr NBT as the best hunting bullet, followed by the Speer 125 gr TNT. The preferred rifling twist can vary depending on whether one intends to shoot subsonic loads. If your use is hunting, I wouldn't bother w/ the subsonic loads.
Gary T.

There was a good article about elk hunting with a 30-30 in a Barnes Bullets reloading manual (#4 I think, but definitely not the most recent one). The author mentioned using a 30-30 AI with 150 grain X bullets. If your Contender had a 23 or 24 inch barrel, it would launch the 150 grain X bullet faster than any typical 20 inch barreled lever gun. Did anyone else see this article?