Black Powder ctg. shooter/author Paul A. Matthews built a long range rifle in 50/70 Sharps based upon a Remington #1 rolling block action. He had molds made for it and developed some very accurate loads. There were a couple articles in the "Single Shot Exchange" magazine on the rifle that described loads, bullet types, etc. He felt the ctg. (with 700g bullets!) handeled wind better than the 45/70 and made a good 1000yd target rifle even though it kicked like hell and had a "rainbow" trajectory. Sorry I can't remember more but if you're really interested you could probably get the back issue of SSE with the article. As I write this I'm beginning to think he might have been shooting a 50/90 instead of a 50/70. Either way there would be lots of useful info. Anyway, tie your hat on tight and have fun!
Jon

I purchased the very first Pedersoli Long Range Model 788 that came to Australia last year;









My Pedersoli Sharps; Top to Bottom 45/70, 50/70, 40/65



Fit & finish on my rifle is supurb with no runover on the hand checkering and a good quality of walnut (better than to plain models). The barrel is 34" long half round half oct with 1 in 26" twist. This is a lot faster than the standard 1 in 42" of the original 50/70's, and should stabalise bullets up to 650gns but there is just not the powder capacity.



I'm loading 62gn 3F Swiss behind a 445gn Lyman 515141 for 1270fps. Loads are grouping consistantly 3MOA at 100yds. On an international free pistol target it will hold 9 ring or better.



I have found 3 problems with this rifle;



1) The lyman bullet doesn't carry enough grease to fully lube that monsterous bore and the best success comes from using grease cookies behind the bullet. I am saving some money to get a 520gn lathe bored bullet made that will carry big grooves and lots of grease and be bore riding so that precious powder space is not wasted.



2) The chamber is very tight and I had to skim 2.5-3 thou off the case heads to get them to fit.



3) Everyone wants a shot or two so if you go to the range, go on a quite day so you can have the darn rifle to yourself.



I'm hoping to carry it in the field later this year to hunt wild boar. That will tell me more about big slugs on pigs.



Honestly, I don't see it as a 1000yd gun unless it is rechambered to 50/90 but to 500yds on shilouettes and for close targets I love mine.

B.A.W.,



Thanks for the response. It's good to hear from someone shooting one. I found an old issue (Dec 1999, No. 202) of Handloader magazine with an article on the 50-70 written by Mike Venturino. It gives a little history and some load info, it's a little short, but some info is better than none. Here's some load exerpts:



Lyman 515141 Bullet (Yours I believe)

Goex FFg 65.0 gr for 1203 fps was listed as best load

Goex Cartridge 70.0 gr for 1222 fps close to old military load

Pyrodex Select 48.0 gr for 1224 fps no notation

XMP-5744 28.0 gr for 1233 fps good ballistic consistancy





RCBS 50-450FN Bullet

Goex FFg 65.0 gr for 1177 fps listed as best load for this bullet

Goex Cartridge 70.0 gr for 1187 fps no notation

Pyrodex 48.0 gr for 1235 fps no notation

XMP-5744 28.0 gr for 1258 fps higher velocity with heavier bullet



This info is straight out of the article, and when it says "no notation", that means nothing was written next to the load in the load table.



The targets show a 3 inch group and a 3 and a half inch group for the test groups. Seems your groups aren't bad. I'm interested in how the new mold works out when you get it. Are you having it done down there, or from somewhere else? The lube groove problem sounds like it makes sense to me. Do you have a drawing of your mold design? What are you using for a "grease cookie" recipe? Also, what bullet lube are you using?



I was thinking of getting the 50/70 and shooting it as is for a while, then "blowing it out" to say 50/90 or 50/110 for long range shooting. What's your opinion of that?



Anyone else have a favorite 50 cal mold in the 500 gr range? I may look into having a 500-550 "bore riding" mold done for the 50.



Thanks.





EDITED--



Sorry I forgot to mention that the test rifle in Mike's article had only a 28" barrel.



Also, do you know your barrel groove diameter? Is in .510, or .515? What diameter are you sizing your bullets to? .512 for a .510 bore, or .517 for a .515 bore? Thanks.

Compare 17Mach IV to 50/70



Approximately 10 months ago, with two friends (a long time benchrester and a retired mechanical engineer) who also shoot Pedersoli rifles, we set about to test rifles and ammunition to determine "what is possible" with standard 'as issued' Pedersoli rifles and Pedersoli sights. Shiloh & C. Sharps rifles being out of the reach of most Australian shooters budget at $AU 5-7000.



You will be aware that numerous hours have gone into case, lube and bullet preparation before getting serious with the actual shooting.



We have fired hundreds of rounds testing powder/compression/velocity/accuracy combinations on a weekly basis. Most times we shoot 10 shot groups before patching and starting again. With normal parallel sided bullets, consistant 10 shot groups as small as 1.35" have been achieved and occasionally the first 5 will group under 1 MOA.



Target 2 -10 shots at 100yds 40/65 (five into 0.488)



Target 1 -7 consecutive shots at 100yds 45/70 (top four into .668)



Recently I purchased the Lyman tapered moulds for BPCR (410678 & 457677). Test results have been phenominal, with 10 shot groups as small as 1.1" in the 40/65 with clusters of 6 or 7 shots into 0.5-0.7". The 45/70 bullet, as you can see from the photo (target 1), is giving similar results (upper 4 holes 0.668"). I've also been lobbying Lyman for a 50/70, 50/90 tapered bullet of similar design for the long range matches. Target 2 is a ten shot 40/65 which while not good overall, shows a cluster of 5 holes into .488"



Loading:

40/65 - 62gn 3FG swiss, Win LR primer, card wad and 410678 projectile. Powder compression 1.2mm. O/A length 3.20" (1334 fps av.)[Bore 403/408 bullets unsized 410]

45/70 - 72gn 3FG swiss, Win LR primer, card wad and 457677 projectile. Powder compression 1.5mm. O/A length 3.12" (1366 fps av.)[Bore 450/458 bullets unsized 460]

50/70 - 62gn 3FG Swiss, Win LR primer, bees wax wad, grease cookie, card wad and 515141 projectile. Powder compression 1.5mm (1270 fps av.)[Bore 500/510 bullets unsized 514]





With my alloy, the 40cal finishes at 388gn which is quite soft (1:35). Six driving bands from the rear two each at 410, 406, 401. My Pedersoli also has a tight throat, but as you can see the 3.2" O/A length loaded, places 80% of the bullet outside the case. The tight groups are fired from a barrel cleaned after each shot. I use a patch of "Wet Ones" moist hand towelettes to wipe the bore followed by a clean dry patch.



I tried this mould with a harder mix 1:15 but it doesn't group anywhere near as well as the soft mix. The bullet has 6 grooves that carry plenty of lube so nothing is used other than a card wad between powder and bullet.





Top to bottom - Martini 40/65, Sharps 50/70 & 45/70 Rolling Block



I also have a custom large framed Martini, 40/65 with badger barrel (8 groove 1 in 16") that shoots the 400gn Snover exceptionally well with the added advantage that you don't have to clean between shots, but it doesn't comply with the exposed hammer rule for most matches. Still I like the old martini as a rifle and this one is my hunting iron.



Firstly when loading BP we must not have air space in the case as in smokeless powder because it is possible to ring a chamber by not having a 100% bulk load, i.e. a full case. We tend to load black powder at levels above 100% and compress the powder back to the 100% level to seat the projectile i.e 105%, 110% etc.



I have, for the past 6 months, been conducting with various black powders, experiments regarding the optimum amount of compression in relation to the velocity and extreme spread of those readings. I used the following calibres 40/65, 45/70 & 50/70 and fired and chronographed over 400 rounds in testing.



The results were most interesting. The optimum compression to obtain the lowest spread appears to be in all instances between 0.025-0.040" (i.e. 1-1.5mm). Indeed I found that over compression gave lower velocities and more variation in velocities than under compression.



Take for example the 40/65 and swiss powder. Starting with 55gn and 409gn projectile with no compression (other than settling) a velocity of 1080fps with 44fps spread was recorded. 63 gn compressed 4.5mm gave 1178fps with 74fps spread. 58gn compressed 0.035" gave 1257fps; the extreme spread was just 6fps. This trend was recorded in all three rifles and also in two borrowed 45/70's.



The 50/70 with it's short fat powder column seems to be very efficent and is right up there throwing a similar weight projectile to the 45/70 with 10gn less powder.

Bad Ass Wallace
Was that Bertrum brass that you had trouble with, with the tight chamber? I got some 45-120 brass a few years ago for my Shiloh ****** rifle in that caliber. Terrible stuff.
Had to thin the rim on my lathe since the rims were in some cases .002-.004 to thick to close my action. The brass also varied quite a bit in thickness. Would have expected better quality for the price of the brass. Very expensive here in the US.
Great looking rifles you have there. I love rifles with those vernier rear sights.
Good luck with them.
Bob G.

BAW, How is the recoil on the 50-70 ? I have heard the Pedersoli BP guns can be brutal. I've never shot one but it certainly looks like fun.

All the Sharps are just big pussies; if you can handle a 308Win then you can shoot these with equal easy.

The 45/120 and 500BPE with 120gn of powder would be equivilant to a light load in 375H&H.

The cases I'm referring to were Bertram. I don't really mind but it's just a pain. Ever remember however, if it wasn't for Bertram brass we wouldn't be shooting a lot of fine old guns that we do and this is his sole business so his financial returns have to make the effort worthwhile. I just resent paying $AU140/20 for 577/450 here when it sells for $63US ($AU82) over there including shipping and taxes.

Badass why dont you rechamber yours in 50-90? shot any pigs with it?

At this time, I would like to experiment with the 50/70 to see just what is possible.
Using tapered bullets in both the 40/65 & 45/70 lifts the performance of both these cartridges to the next level. For example both are now capable of throwing heavy projectiles (400/500gn)at higher velocities <1350fps. That puts them in the 40/70 & 45/90 class.
Same with the 50/70, I think with the right bore riding bullet with minimal seating, it can be lifted to almost 50/90 performance.

B.A.W.,

Have you been looking at getting a tapered mold for .50? I have also been looking into molds and ballistics for the 50/70. I have read other accounts of people liking the new Lyman tapered bullets in thier 40's and 45's. You say you have "lobbied" Lyman for one in .50, what was their response (if any), and who could I talk to there to help stir the interest?

My thinking is either a bore rider or tapered bullet (like the .45 Lyman has), in about a 550 grain that will hang out of the case about half way, with either a flat or hollow base, cast soft in 1:30-1:40 tin:lead alloy. I've looked at a couple of custom mold makers, and think I could get one in a double cavity for +/- $100 US, made from aluminum. Any thoughts?

I decided to go ahead and get the Pedersoli 50/70, $1245 US was a pretty good deal (I think), and they let me put it on "layaway" for 90 days, I couldn't say no to that. I think I'll shoot mine as a 50/70 for a while and see what can be done with it at long range. I can always open it up to 50/90 later if I'm not happy with the long range performance. I've done some reading about the originals, and it seems that the 50/70 was much preffered by the "buffalo hunters" and was one of the most ordered calibers.

Have you slugged your bore? I'm curious what your bore diameter is, .510" or .515? What are you sizing your bullets to, or are you shooting them "as dropped" from the mold?

Thanks.

Lyman Response:



"We do not have any plans at this time to add a 50 cal. mould of this type,

but we will pass your note on to our marketing department for their

consideration.



-----Original Message-----

From: lyman1 [mailto:lyman1@lymanproducts.com]

Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 8:17 AM

To: custsvc@cshore.com

Subject: Data posted to form 1 of http://lymanproducts.com/Contact.htm



I'm now looking into a custom bullet from Paul Jones perhaps a shortened version of the 50002 to finish about 540-550gn.

www.pauljonesmoulds.com/50_caliber.htm