I know it use to be discussed allot but have I have not heard anything in a while but has there been any laws or news on the subject of converting a t/c from a rifle to a pistol or the other way around? I am Wright that the encore frame could go either way correct?

Somewhere on this forum there was a recent post about this .As I understood it it depends on the original purchase.If the receiver went to a psitol you could use it either way.

Nothing has changed. The old discussions are still pertinent.

I have read many, many posts regarding this issue, both on this forum and others. I have read what the BATF has said, I have read what T/C has said about the issue...here it is in a nutshell (at least my understading of it):

It is 100% legal to convert from rifle to pistol or pistol to rifle as long as when it is in "rifle" configuration, you have a legal length barrel.
It is 100% illegal to convert any T/C rifle to pistol configuration. If you do, you run the risk of a long jail term.

So there, that should clear things up!

Thanks for the responses. I took a little time at work and called Thompson center about it and they said to contacted a local game warden for the info so I did he said to go either way was perfectly legal with no problems. I also called the state police and they to said it was fine to convert either way. I live in Indiana so maybe it is just here they say ok but I hope they are right because I think I am going to do it

quote:

I took a little time at work and called Thompson center about it and they said to contacted a local game warden for the info so I did he said to go either way was perfectly legal with no problems.

The game warden ONLY cares and knows about whether it's legal to use for hunting. He probably doesn't know or care about the Federal law part of it.

quote:

I also called the state police and they to said it was fine to convert either way. I live in Indiana so maybe it is just here they say ok but I hope they are right because I think I am going to do it

The State Police are concerned with enforcing State law. If you live in a state that doesn't have handgun registration, they won't care. If you live in a state that does have handgun registration they probably would care.

Of course, all this is aside from the Federal law issue. There are those more knowledgeable than myself on this issue and it's been discussed in detail before so I'm not going to plow that ground again.

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
I have read many, many posts regarding this issue, both on this forum and others. I have read what the BATF has said, I have read what T/C has said about the issue...here it is in a nutshell (at least my understading of it):

It is 100% legal to convert from rifle to pistol or pistol to rifle as long as when it is in "rifle" configuration, you have a legal length barrel.
It is 100% illegal to convert any T/C rifle to pistol configuration. If you do, you run the risk of a long jail term.

So there, that should clear things up!

Let me see if I have this right. You can take a T/C frame no matter how it’s registered (Pistol or Rifle) and configure it as a pistol or a rifle as long as that configuration meets the legal definition of a pistol or rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Let me see if I have this right. You can take a T/C frame no matter how it’s registered (Pistol or Rifle) and configure it as a pistol or a rifle as long as that configuration meets the legal definition of a pistol or rifle?

That would be great, if true. IMO, the best assessment of what the ATF could rule if it were pushing the issue is that ANY frame that either was sold in rifle configuration or that has ever been assembled in rifle configuration must remain in rifle configuration from then on. Any pistol frame (sold as such) must remain in pistol form in order to be in pistol configuration.

Ridiculous, we all know. And it may never become an issue. I'm unwilling, however, to be the one that finds out differently.

I wrote my reply as a tongue in cheek answer...I said converting a T/C from rifle to pistol or vice versa is both 100% legal and illegal, depending on who you talk to.
On a serious note, I honestly think that the BATFE would have outlawed the manufacture by T/C of any type of frame that could be converted. Yes, I realize that all you need is a hacksaw and a few minutes to turn any rifle or shotgun into an illegal weapon, but that is not the same.
My dad spent 20+ years in Federal Law Enforcement, many times working closely with the ATF. One thing he always told me, and it is true to this day, is that there has to be intent to break the law before it gets serious. If you put a 10" Contender barrel on a rifle configured T/C you know that is wrong and therefore show intent to break the law. On the other hand, if you put the pistol grip on and then a 10" barrel that would seem to be okay.
I realize a lot will be said about BATFE and what their definition of intent is, but think about this next scenario for a minute.

You pass a burning house. You hear a child yelling. You go into the yard, break down the door and look for the child. He is afraid and says he doesn't want to leave. You grab him and he starts screaming that he wants to take his favorite toy with him. You grab the toy and run from the house.
Now let's look at what crimes you committed:
Trespass
Breaking and Entering
Burglary
Kidnapping
Destruction of Private Property.
In some states kidnapping is punishable by the death penalty.
So in this scenario, should you get a long jail sentence or even the death penalty?
OF COURSE NOT THAT IS RIDICULOUS! Why? There was NO INTENT to commit a crime.
I know this is oversimplification, but do you really think, with all the law suits going on, the power of the government to shut down a business, the thousands of gun laws on the books, that T/C would keep making guns the way they do if it allowed the possiblities listed above? Let's do this, the first person who gets arrested by BATFE for changing a rifle into a pistol, let us know. Then the several hundred thousand owners of those weapons can file the larges class action lawsuit ever seen.
I am sorry, but there has to be some reason used in answering questions like these.
If I pi**ed anyone off, I apologize in advance. I just don't think there is reason to scare the you know what out of new shooters by implying that if you buy a used T/C Contender pistol, and the BATFE finds out it was originally shipped as a rifle, that you will most likely be a felon and possibly go to jail for a long time.
Again, don't mean to make people angry, just had to rant.

CongoMike:

Don't know if any of that was directed at me, but no offense taken HERE, brother. We are all contributing to the discussion.

My point was what the ATF COULD possibly do if they wanted to make an issue out of it, which -for now - it doesn't seem like they do. I doubt very much whether the ATF is going to pursue any case involving what I call "visually legal configurations" of TC firearms (or other switch-barrels). Maybe if someone threw it in their faces or someone got ticked-off and incited the ATF to investigate someone. Maybe.

I still don't want to be the one that finds out that I'm wrong about this. If I took a Remington Model 7, chopped the barrel to 14", and replaced the stock with a pistol stock, we all know that I WOULD be in violation of federal law. The gray area on the TC's centers around the fact that you can do this without making permanent modification to any of the parts. That helps.

Now I wanna' go shoot my TC's!

Congomike I see where your coming from with just one exception " when was the last time the BATF used common sense" ?

There is no grey area......if it started out as a rifle, it is illegal to attach a barrel less than 16" in length or configure it so that the overall length is less than 26".... PERIOD .......doesn't matter if it's an Encore, a Remington 700 or a Ruger Number 1......they are all legally rifles and changing one into pistol configuration is a federal felony if you don't first pay the $200 tax and register it as an NFA requlated short barreled rifle.....


If you have any doubt, read this:

What the BATF says about converting TC rifles

Jon...not aimed at anyone...just a rant. I am with you, I just like to shoot my contender.

quote:

Originally posted by GonHuntin:
There is no grey area......if it started out as a rifle, it is illegal to attach a barrel less than 16" in length or configure it so that the overall length is less than 26".... PERIOD .......doesn't matter if it's an Encore, a Remington 700 or a Ruger Number 1......they are all legally rifles and changing one into pistol configuration is a federal felony if you don't first pay the $200 tax and register it as an NFA requlated short barreled rifle.....


If you have any doubt, read this:

What the BATF says about converting TC rifles

You're right, of course. The "gray area" I was speaking of was in people's perceptions of what's happening when they remove a few screws, tap out a pin, reverse the process with different parts, and a rifle has become a handgun.

GonHuntin, what's your understanding of TC pistols (as delivered from the factory and sold in that configuration) being converted to rifles/carbines and back?

quote:

The game warden ONLY cares and knows about whether it's legal to use for hunting. He probably doesn't know or care about the Federal law part of it.

Not in NY State. The conservation officers are actually tougher than even the state police. They go through the same training as the SP PLUS the conservation end of it. If you have an encore rifle, and jsut put a pistol grip and barrel on in, you are in BIG trouble in NY. You must have in a your valid NYS pistol permit. the conservation officer WILL chekc this. And he WILL know the rules about all gun laws.

quote:

Originally posted by JLarsson:
You're right, of course. The "gray area" I was speaking of was in people's perceptions of what's happening when they remove a few screws, tap out a pin, reverse the process with different parts, and a rifle has become a handgun.

GonHuntin, what's your understanding of TC pistols (as delivered from the factory and sold in that configuration) being converted to rifles/carbines and back?

Jon

That's a good question! I have heard folks say that it is not legal to switch back and forth even if it started as a pistol......however, if you look back at the TC USSC case, the BATF actually introduced that argument but later withdrew it......I think they knew it was a losing argument.....

GonHutin:
Thanks for the copy of rhe letter from the BATFE. It was very enlightening. I am not being a wise ass here, but I do have a serious question and would like everyone's thoughts on this.
In the letter it says if you configure a rifle with less than a 16" barrel, or overall length of less than 26" it becomes a NFA weapon with a $200 tax stamp due. (paraphrasing the letter)
So, if I have, say, a Ruger #3 and remove the butt stock, then I am technically in violation since I have configured that rifle to have an overall length of less than 26".
And again, NOT BEING A PAIN IN THE YOU KNOW WHAT, but am I correct in my interpretation?

PA Resident ! I purchased an Encore .50 Muzzle loader , in 05 It was registered as a pistol at dealer when I purchased it ! The action is considered a Pistol ! even though I have a muzzle loader barrel on it ! It's a pistol ! Or Hand gun !

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
GonHutin:
Thanks for the copy of rhe letter from the BATFE. It was very enlightening. I am not being a wise ass here, but I do have a serious question and would like everyone's thoughts on this.
In the letter it says if you configure a rifle with less than a 16" barrel, or overall length of less than 26" it becomes a NFA weapon with a $200 tax stamp due. (paraphrasing the letter)
So, if I have, say, a Ruger #3 and remove the butt stock, then I am technically in violation since I have configured that rifle to have an overall length of less than 26".
And again, NOT BEING A PAIN IN THE YOU KNOW WHAT, but am I correct in my interpretation?

My opinion, and don't take it as legal advice......by simply removing the stock, you have not "made" anything (short barreled rifle is a weapon "made" from a rifle), I don't believe you are in violation as long as you don't replace the stock with something that allows you to fire the rifle in that configuration.....in other words, you aren't likely to fire the rifle without the stock unless you install some type of grip that allows you to hold the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Concho42:
PA Resident ! I purchased an Encore .50 Muzzle loader , in 05 It was registered as a pistol at dealer when I purchased it ! The action is considered a Pistol ! even though I have a muzzle loader barrel on it ! It's a pistol ! Or Hand gun !

Concho....sorry, but you are dead wrong!

Go read the BATF letter!!

While state laws can be more restrictive than federal laws, they cannot be less restrictive.....

It doesn't matter if the dealer lists the Encore muzzleloader as a pistol on the paperwork, if it left the factory as a rifle, it is legally a rifle under federal law and it is a federal felony to convert it into pistol configuration without registering it as a short barreled rifle. That is federal law (National Firearms Act 1934) and your dealer or the state of PA cannot override that law.