I'm going to have a MGM Encore barrel built and am trying to decide which of these calibers to go with. I have no specific applications, mostly small game and varmints out to 200 yards, maybe.
Let's have some discussion as obviously, I'll be handloading for either one.
One question I have is the availability of 218 Bee brass. Anyone know?

Decades ago JDJones wrote an interesting article (for American Handgunner?) on this question. His experience was that while the Bee outperformed the Hornet in the 10 inch Contender it's case did not last as long. IIRC in the final analysis he prefered the K-Hornet to either.

Layne Simpson offers a thoughtful analysis of the Bee here http://www.rifleshootermag.com...S_0108_09/index.html

I have a 21 inch Hornet tube for my Contender but haven't played with it much. These days Hornet brass is more widely available than that for the Bee, and from a variety of mfgs. A quick Google suggest only Winchester offers Bee brass. I recommend you consider the K-Hornet.

Cliff,

I have been researching the 218 Bee alot lately and have read that case is longer in the 218 Bee. I can not give you an explaination for this. I can tell you due to case shape, reloading the 218 Bee is easier than the Hornet. I would also enjoy the extra 200 fps when shooting varmints.

ddj

Hodgdon's #27 manual shows the following:
218 Bee
OAL 1.345"
trim length 1.325"

.22 Hornet
OAL 1.403"
trim length 1.393"

I am beginning to like the 218 Bee better than the Hornet but in reality, there may be little difference in the two.
One thing I read is that Bee brass can be made from 25-20 or 32-20 brass. that's a plus.

I had a Contender in 22 K Hornet once. Shot real good long case life.

That is what I would recommend.

I was one of the guys losing many hornet cases during the reloading process. Crushed cases were the norm it seemed and last count I was losing 10-15 per 100 (this was on a Dillon 550 press and l would have expected to lose less on a single stage press). I encountered less problems using boat tail bullets so I called James Calhoon (bullet maker see www.jamescalhoon.com) to see if he made any light weight boat tail bullets (35 gr) and told him my problem of crushed hornet cases. He inquired as to what brand of hornet dies were used and then simply advised me to get a set of Forster dies. I am a pretty skeptical guy (auditor) but thought what the heck, if it does work it will pay for itself. So I ordered a Forster BR seater die and loaded 500 rounds with no crushed cases (again using my Dillon 550 press).

If you go with the hornet purchase a set of Forster BR dies. You will not regret it.

That's good information. I recently bought a Forster Co-ax press and if their dies are like this, they will be very good.

The Hornet is a very good round, I have shot it alot. But after purchasing a Bee, that 200 fps makes a big difference. I can't tell any difference in recoil or noise. Also, the 218 Bee is just cool. That has to account for something.

ddj

I have no experience with 218 Bee, the 22 Hornet is very good fun and if Trout here is anything to go by, you cant really go wrong.

I have had both and currently have a cute little Martini Cadet in 218 Bee. It is a cat killer extraordina many well beyond 200 yards, not to mention, raccoons, skunks and squirrels.

The Bee is a bit faster, but the Hornet offers a softer report and easily available brass.

Thanks Dave. Ok hunter here. Are you coming to the Tulsa show in April?

I had a Kimber of Oregon .218 Bee (SN # B79) should anyone own it now. The rifle while quite accurate with only 2 loads, one for the 40 grain and one for the 45 grain bullets would only shoot with Win 680 powder. I ASSUME that AA 1680 would get similiar results, but the 50 ft/secs advantage over the common Hornet was simply not worth the effort and odd brass. The Khornet is the pick of the litter as to performance and accuracy. Never should have sold the Khornet...

If your getting a chamber recut, why not look at the 218 Mashburn Bee? For best results cases can be formed from plentifull 25/20 Winchester; this allows you to form a shoulder to suppour the case during fire forming.

I use 40gn BT's in my Cadet rifle for 3300fps

quote:

Originally posted by Bad Ass Wallace:
If your getting a chamber recut, why not look at the 218 Mashburn Bee? For best results cases can be formed from plentifull 25/20 Winchester; this allows you to form a shoulder to suppour the case during fire forming.

I use 40gn BT's in my Cadet rifle for 3300fps

So what does the rim do during fireforming ?

quote:

Originally posted by Cliff Lyle:
Thanks Dave. Ok hunter here. Are you coming to the Tulsa show in April?

We are planning on it/Dave

I noticed that 218 Bee brass is almost 2x the price of 22 hornet brass. The hornet is back in front...

You are right about the cost of the brass,
but the Bee has a real case head around the primer pocket.

Good point. It can also be made from 25-20 or 32-20 brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Cliff Lyle:
Good point. It can also be made from 25-20 or 32-20 brass.

Dude, enough dithering. It's an Encore. Build a barrel for each.

Bite me.

FWIW, I love the hornet. I am getting an honest 2950 fps with 40 grain bullets and lil gun. If I wanted 200 more fps I'd get another .223 The hornet just fills a nich out to about 150 yards. You can stretch it a lot farther but why? I just like it. If the range is short and the game small it is the first one in the truck.

I've got #1's in Hornet (std & K), and the 218. If I had to keep one and get rid of the others, I'd keep the Bee. I think the Mashburn Bee would be a great chambering, but the dies are pretty pricey for what you might gain.

I don't have any experience with the Bee, thought it would be nice to have one but from what I've read it may not be worth the hassel at least to me. I have two Rugers in Hornet and a 10" Contender. I love and hate this cartridge. Sometimes it shoots great and then same rifle/load combo it's 1.5"+ pattern again. I have had quite a few carts. separate just above the rim. Then I have the wall of the case stuck in the chamber. Then you are done for the day if you're out and about. Luckily only happened at home. Luck can't last forever. I know this isn't one of your two choices but the best I have come up with is the 221 Fireball. Easy to load, nice brass and one hole at 100 yds. That's out of 700 Clasic 24" barrel. You can even down load it. Would Love to have a barrel in 221 or 20 Var Targ. Haven't found much to beat this yet. I hope they take the 20 where they did the 17 Fireball. If you haven't decided yet check into 221 FB if you want 22 caliber. It would eliminate several potential problems IMO.

I have a BSA martini in Hornet and one in Bee. The Hornet gets 3,100ft/sec with 40gn bullet and the Bee gets 3,100ft/sec with 45gn bullet. These are long case life/accurate loads. The Bee brass is very difficult to get and the Hornet brass is easy to get. The Bee brass (Win) is not particularly consistent but there is first class Hornet brass available, RWS/Norma or select the best from Win/Rem. I was a bit disappointed with the Bee. I'd go for the Hornet if I was doing it over again with the same knowledge.

thanks for that information.

I think Bee brass would outlast Hornet cases IF the Bee chamber has the shoulder in the right place, so as to eliminate case stretch on firing.

I have owned and shot both in #1's. Both Have a coolness factor but I give the edge to the Hornet. Other than being cool, if I was going to try for more speed I would just up it to the triple deuce
Dave

I have a Ruger #1V 223 that I load down to the level of a 218 Bee with 15 gr Blue Dot 33 gr Vmax 3500 fps.

Averages in the 7s, but has shot in the 4s.

I probably have 10,000 pieces of 223 brass, so brass life is not a problem.

I like easy ways. So I have .22Hornet braek open action BRNO 110-rifle and T/C Contender pistol

While this won't settle the question, I have abandon the .22 Hornet in favor of a 22 Hornet wildcat- the .22 Mink. With a slightly shortened case, neck collapse is pretty much eliminated and ballistics are are very close. I use mine in a Cascade V.E.X rifle for hunting squirrels and woodchucks. Prior to the Mink, I had a .22 Squirrel it was Ok but I prefer the Mink. Both Squirrel and Mink can be chambered in .17, 20 as well as 22.
Good luck and enjoy.

It sounds interesting. I'm not familiar with the mink so would you give us some details of it? Is it similar or superior to the hornet?

Cliff, I posted on this earlier. Are you stuck on those two carts? If you go with the Hornet I would look into K-Hornet. I'm heading that way if I keep Hornets. As I said I love and hate the reg. Hornet. More cons than pros for (me). Since I got the 221 Fire Ball I can't think of any other cart. in this range of performance I would want. Easier to load, avail. GOOD brass, very ACCURATE, good velocity for the game and distance you site. I think 200yds is a stretch for Hornet. When I am in different shooting situations on game I always would PREFER and GRAB the 221 over the Hornet. Confidence factor. I didn't like finding these results after the money and time I have invested. The Hornet can be a fun little cart. but I prefer the better mousetrap. Good luck and let us know your results.

quote:

Originally posted by bigvarmint:
Cliff, I posted on this earlier. Are you stuck on those two carts? If you go with the Hornet I would look into K-Hornet. I'm heading that way if I keep Hornets. As I said I love and hate the reg. Hornet. More cons than pros for (me). Since I got the 221 Fire Ball I can't think of any other cart. in this range of performance I would want. Easier to load, avail. GOOD brass, very ACCURATE, good velocity for the game and distance you site. I think 200yds is a stretch for Hornet. When I am in different shooting situations on game I always would PREFER and GRAB the 221 over the Hornet. Confidence factor. I didn't like finding these results after the money and time I have invested. The Hornet can be a fun little cart. but I prefer the better mousetrap. Good luck and let us know your results.

Thanks

You've unwittingly answered a question that's been rattling around in my head for a few months.

Hornet / Bee / Fireball. Looks like it's a Fireball for me.