I have read that they exist but has anyone seen one? The 400 has a 3" case and as the name implies, it's straight. So it's not supposed to work in a Martini as it won't turn the corner into the chamber. But then how come some are said to exist?

In the 1880s there was some experimentation by the British military with reduced-bore cartridges for the Martini Henry rifles, mainly with the .402 Enfield-Martini round. This was a 2-3/4" case tried both in straight-taper form as well as a tapered and bottlenecked form. See Hoyem's "History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition" in both volumes 2 & 3. Could these be the the ones "said to exist"?

I've never heard of a Martini action rifle in the .400 3" straight (and probably unbendable) Purdey round, but then again there's lots of stuff I've never heard of...

From Hoyem, vol 3:

That tapered case looks nearly identical to a Winchester 40-65 or a 40-82. I shoot an identical 385 grain paper patched bullet in my 40-65 and my 40-70 Sharps Straight, and I can tell you that it is a hammer on deer and hogs. I also have a grease groove round nosed bullet that looks identical to the greaser in the photograph, but mine weighs 400 grains.

My Sharps rifles in 40 caliber have proven to be accurate, effective, and fun to shoot.

Me too. I shoot, and build, a lot of 40-65; the 40 cals are better than the 45, due to the long bullets for weight.
I prefer them. Unless I just want a 550 grainer....
But yes, in a Martini you need a bottle neck to make it into the chamber.
I also really like the 38-56, which is the 40-65 necked to 38 caliber (375 for modern rifles).
And unlike the 38-55, which is named for a breech seated bullet and will not hold 55 grains with a case seated bullet, the 38-56 will. Too much info I know.

Apparently the British lagged a bit behind the Americans in developing a good 40 caliber cartridge. As early as 1869, Sharps offered a 40-50 Straight cartridge, as well as a 40-50 bottleneck. These were commonly loaded with a 265 grain paper patched bullet. By 1874, Sharps offered a 40 2 1/4 bottleneck cartridge loaded with powder charges ranging from 50 to 80 grains and patched bullets ranging from 330 to 370 grains in weight. In March 1876, Sharps brought out the famed 40-70 Sharps Straight, using a 2 1/2 inch case and a 330 grain patched bullet.

The 40 caliber hammer that Sharps loaded was the 40 2 5/8 Bottleneck loaded with 90 grains of powder and a 370 grain paper patched bullet--and buffalo hunters were using this cartridge on bison at extreme range AS EARLY AS May, 1873. This cartridge became extremely popular on the western game fields relatively quickly because of it flat trajectory and ability to penetrate.

If Westly Richards was experimenting with the .4 Enfield-Martini in 1880, they were ten years behind in 40 caliber development to the Americans at this point.


Of course, the development of smokeless powder renders this timeline moot , for all practical purposes. I will say that, based on personal experience, the performance of a flat nosed hard cast 40 caliber bullet from 250 to 420 grains on an animal is eye opening. It was for me, at least.

Well I am about to find out ... bought a MH action and have a barrel and reamer on hand. There is a slight taper to the 400 NE (Purdey/3"/Straight) so maybe that's the explanation.

Russ, years ago I bought a Greener Martini from a member here that was barreled and chambered in .577 3-inch BPE. This case with a Woodleigh 650 made it round the bend, but the Greener action is a bit larger than the original Enfield Martinis. Still, I bet your rifle will feed the .400 just fine.

What is the twist in that barrel?

Actually it's a 40 twist .401 barrel intended for a 38-40. There are two reasons for this: 1. you can't get .405 bullets; and 2. this barrel is going to be used to shoot a single stack 000 buck load sitting in a .410 wad topped off with a couple of 40 cal round balls, for coyote and hog hunting in low light conditions. A 410 wad loaded with OOO buck fits snugly in a 400 bore. It will also be used to shoot gas checked 38-40 bullets for deer and hogs in daylight. I chose the 400 straight because it's an honest 3" case, unlike the 9.3x74R and the 405 Winchester. I toyed with the idea of a 410 3" reamer and 410 cases, but preferred brass cases which are too "loose" in a 410 chamber.

Russ--The Lyman 403169 mold throws a great 250 grain flat nosed bullet that is very accurate and a superb killer. It penetrates like you won't believe. The bullet falls out of the mold at .403, and upsets and shoots accurately in my .400/.408 Sharps barrels without leading. You might want to take a look at that one.

That one aside, I have some commercially cast bullets by Meyer up in Pa. that are .408. They would be easily sized to .405 with a push through sizing die, or I am sure Meyer would be able to provide them lubed and sized to .405.

Best, sharpsguy

quote:

403169

thanks for tip .. there is a guy who supplies a 175gr GC bullet for the 38-40 (dia 402 or 3) I forget his name but he goes by bullet something. I am going to drive these about 2000 fps. I think this is the only GC bullet available in this dia. I don't think I can shoot a 250 grain bullet out of a 40 twist barrel. already have the barrel and I don't think I could find the correct 405 barrel for love or money. next size up would be 410 which would probably work fine using 41 mag bullets but may be a little loose for the 000 buck load, plus I think the neck would be too tight in the Purdey chamber. A 410 groove barrel would obviously work with a 410 chamber and plastic cases. Brass cases would get overworked.

Action showed up, I think it's a Mk III as it has the divot in the front of the action for the forend iron. Mockup says 400NE will chamber, but I ran into an unexpected problem. Barrel shank is 1.00 x 14 BSW, but my blank is only 1.00 so no shoulder. I considered a barrel nut disguised as a MH lump but that was too complicated and I am not sure I can cut an internal Whitworth thread. I also have a 303 barrel and decided to put that on the action with a quarter rib. The action measurement called for a .751 barrel tenon. When I threaded the barrel, I discovered two strange things: the thread tightens up as you screw in the barrel, like a pipe thread (I fixed that by cutting the barrel shank thread with a bit of taper); and the action face is not perpendicular to the threaded hole in the action. When the barrel landed on the action face, it touched at the bottom but left a .5mm gap at the top (about 20 thou) That's not an easy fix as no (easy) way to fixture action in lathe and get a cutter across the face. I measured the gap with feeler gauges and surfaced the action face in my mill followed up with a bit of smoke and file work. Of course the breech block interfered with the barrel shank after that was done, so I had to face the barrel again and stone the breech face a bit to get it smooth and making even contact with the breech. Action now closes but it just touches the breech. I think originally these MHs have about 10 thou clearance, like a Win 1894. Supposed to touch the ctg head but not the breech. Can't see why not but that's how they were made. Have not recut chamber yet as I don't have the reamer but wanted to get some input on the breech touching the breech block while I get a reamer: to touch or not to touch?

Well chamber is cut, action engraved, quarter rib made and soldered in place, front sight mounted; just need an extractor for this action and some wood. Got a std MH extractor from Numrich, it was too short. I have figured out, with some help, that this action has Greener GP dimensions and internals. So I need a Greener GP extractor. Anyone?

I bought a complete Greener EG action .. extractor is a good fit on my action so I will copy that. Thinking of making a small run of them via CNC mill (with a "generic" bar across the top so they can be cut for any caliber). If anyone has an interest in getting one PM me. The cost will depend on the quantity of the run, but to keep it reasonable (ie two digits not three), we will need to run around 50 pieces.

Russ, good to hear you are making progress with this interesting project. Any time you want to share photos, the rest of us will be happy to admire them!

I have always found posting photos on AR to be problematic. When job is done I will post them on my own website and then link to them from here. I don't use photobucket, never had much need as almost every other forum I use (not many) hosts the photos directly. In the meantime I did put some on the Martini forum of Gunboards.