Here's a teaser of my next low wall build, a PG flat-side action with SST.


Choice of RF or CF, I have blocks for both. Plus I already have low wall sporters in 22LR and 22 K-Hornet. What cartridge for Southeast hunting/shooting?

Some choices under consideration:
17RF of some sort
22LR
22WMR
17 Hornet of some sort
17 Bee of some sort
224 Maxi
256WM
357 Maximum

Choices and discussions welcomed!
Regards, Joe

I would be inclined towards a .357 Max. You could also use it with .357 Mag, or for that matter, 38 Special. In the SE USA you would be able to take on any game from hogs to gators to deer to ....
Bet you have fun with this post!

An interesting choice, the 357 Max. I'm currently having a CVA Apex barrel rebored and chamberred from 222 to 357 Max. I'm pretty impressed with the ballistics.

I don't now how hard it would be to get brass, but I think something along the lines of a 25-20 SS would be quite unique. Fairly potent little round, and an exquisite cartridge for an exquisite action. And you wouldn't meet yourself coming out of Wal-Mart either, if you know what I mean...

I have found brass lately and will make up some loads for a contender barrel.

I have a 357 Max in a contender. Great short range deer cartridge. And I shot an antelope with it as well. It's a very useful cartridge in my view.

howbout a 218 mashburn bee. great little round. or a 221 - i did my last one in 221 and it made a pretty sweet little gun

.308/20

Anyone neck the .357 max down to a .22 or .20?
Was looking at some cases the other night and just wondering???
C.G.B.

.25-20 or .256 WM would be my choice.

Jerry Liles

quote:

Originally posted by cgbach:
Anyone neck the .357 max down to a .22 or .20?
Was looking at some cases the other night and just wondering???
C.G.B.

The 224 Maxi is the 357 Maximum case necked down to 22. The finished product is made by using a 223 Rem reamer, run in to the 222 Rem headspace dimension. The 223 FL die is then shortened from the bottom to match. This creates a case that is the perfect length when the neckdown is complete, essentially a short-neck rimmed 222 Rem. It uses standard 222 Rem loading data and is very accurate, I've made one on a Martini Cadet and it turned out VERY well indeed.

However IMO full 222 loading data would be too hot for a low wall, I'd limit it to ~40K psi like the Maximum and 256WM.
Regards, Joe

I don't see a 218 Mashburn Bee as an option.
You must already have one.

How about a .357 Maximum necked down to 6mm?
There are a bazillion light weight 6mm bullets to choose from now. It would be much more flexible than the .256 Win due to the wider array of bullets to chose from.

Other than that I would like to try a tight chambered .22 WMR. Make the chamber a much closer fit to the loaded round than a repeating rifle needs. Maker the throat short in a bench rest type that barely clears the bullet's ogive.
There has to be a way to chamber this round to make it shoot better.

A 17 rimfire or centerfire low wall would be cute. Would something like a 44 special or 45 colt work?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
A 17 rimfire or centerfire low wall would be cute. Would something like a 44 special or 45 colt work?

44 Special and 45 Colt would probably (?) both work fine at original pressures (I'd wanta run the calcs first) but wouldn't provide the velocity range I'm seeking. 44 Mag is definitely too much.

I like small single shot rifles and have built many many low walls and Cadets as well as a few other types of so-called 'rook'-type rifles on other SS actions. Currently possess several low wall 22LRs, two low wall K-Hornets, one Cadet 219 Zipper and one Cadet Improved Zipper. Have reamers for all 3 22LR chambers, 22WMR, 17Mach2, 17HMR, 22 K-Hornet, 223 (for 224 Maxi), 25-20 WCF, 256WM and 30-30 Wesson (30-357 Maxi).

I hasten to add that while the low wall will be OK with hot-loaded Hornet-sized cases, any case head the size of the Bee and larger must be limited in pressure to avoid problems. For instance the 223 Rem/5.56 NATO cartridge at full pressure, 50+K, WILL crack the action's sidewalls while the 357 Magnum (same exact case head OD), at ~35-40K, will be fine once bushed.
Regards, Joe

OK, I'll throw a odd one into the pile. How about a 38-40? Great little cartridge, brass available as well as jacketed and cast bullets. Original pressures no problem. Barrels including octagon available. I used an original back in the 70's to win a few monthly indoor turkey shoots during the winter in Maine. Loved the little gun, just couldn't get the owner to part with it . Darn it.

J.D.
I corrected my bone headed post.
I meant to say .357 Maximum

Mr. Steele:

What's up with all the exotic chamberings? What's wrong with chambering a low wall for something like the 25-20 or 32-20 as God intended?

Glenn

quote:

Originally posted by hst:
Mr. Steele:

What's up with all the exotic chamberings? What's wrong with chambering a low wall for something like the 25-20 or 32-20 as God intended?

Glenn

Good point, Glenn! Unfortunately something has apparently gone wrong with the modern coyotes' GPS navigation systems 'cause they're appearing more and more frequently around here instead of their former haunts out West. I figure that The Lord helps those who help themselves, so I wanta help myself make some longer coyote shots or else try another super-accurate rimfire for less reloading work.

I'm relining an original low wall barrel to 32-20 right now, but it doesn't deliver the smackdown like the faster rounds. It's a super squirrel-&-rabbit choice, also great for turkeys, but I'd hate to hafta use it as my regular coyote medicine.

And besides, it's a fine kettle of fish when someone like YOU accuses someone like ME of having exotically-chambered rifles! I seem to recall a certain 500 Something-Or-Other single shot on the cover of a certain Guild publication, and also a certain lot of hard-to-find brass for the 375 Flanged Magnum that you're probably STILL hoarding for another build......sheesh, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Hope you and yours had a splendid Holiday, best, Joe

Mr. Steele:

Now don't start in on me about building a .375 flanged. It is not a matter of free will. I have some brass. I have a set of dies. I have primers. Obviously the Good Lord intends that I build one. Who am I to argue with Him?

The only part I am missing is a Webley Model of 1902 action to build it on...


As for the Gibbs in .500 Express, that is not an exotic chambering. It is the only period correct chambering that one can buy brass for. You want I should chamber a 1878 action for the .300 Lazaroni or some such?


How's about a .25-35 in that low wall? I would think it as strong as the Model 94. The case capacity is well under that of the .30-30. I can't say I recall Winchester chambering the low wall for that cartridge, but it might be doable. It is a low pressure cartridge and certainly big enough to garner the attention of your local stray dogs.


The low wall is a lot stronger than the Stevens 44, and that was chambered in .38-55 and .32-40. Not successfully, granted, but it was done.


Glenn

Mr. Steele, I am very interested it the .224 Maxi you mentioned. I have a Martini Cadet action needing employment. I have been thinking of trying .357 Maximum brass resized in a .221 Fireball die and trimmed for a .221 Fireball rimmed. Do you see any problem with the case diameter just ahead of the rim? Is the Cadet action up to full pressure .221 loads? I have a thread running on the Wildcat forum now on this subject. Your advise has helped me greatly in the past, and I was happy to see your post on this subject.

quote:

Originally posted by L. Rivard:
Mr. Steele, I am very interested it the .224 Maxi you mentioned. I have a Martini Cadet action needing employment. I have been thinking of trying .357 Maximum brass resized in a .221 Fireball die and trimmed for a .221 Fireball rimmed. Do you see any problem with the case diameter just ahead of the rim? Is the Cadet action up to full pressure .221 loads? I have a thread running on the Wildcat forum now on this subject. Your advise has helped me greatly in the past, and I was happy to see your post on this subject.

Mr. Rivard, I've used the 224 Maxi in the Cadet with great success and IMO the Maxi case will work perfectly for what you have in mind. AAMOF I've been considering a Cadet 17 Fireball Rimmed using the shortened Maxi brass but I don't have nearly enough tuits.

To use the Maxi brass, I first anneal the necks and then run them into a(n intermediate) 30 Luger die to start the neckdown. Again into either a(n intermediate) 256WM die or directly into the cut-down 223 die. In your case (?!grin) I'd use at least one intermediate neckdown die if not 2, then into the Fireball die.

You'll hafta thin the necks in some way and I suggest that you also cut the case mouth ends to a smooth right-angle surface before angle-reaming inside and out. The neckdown often creates a rough uneven end on the case mouth and this roughness will lead to early neck splits unless smoothed up.

The main limitation with the Cadet/0.375" case OD combination involves A)the lack of primary extraction and B)the need to bush the striker nose. These limitations work together to keep the little action confined to the cases and pressures that will extract readily. Cases of the 0.375" head size can be loaded to full pressures with few problems. Load it up 'til extraction becomes difficult, when the fired cases begin to stick then that's your sign (with apologies to Bill Engval, grin).

Many of these little actions have weak or bent mainsprings. A new extra-strong mainspring for a 1903 Springfield can be cut in half to make 2 replacement Cadet mainsprings. The end coils of most replacement springs are usually slightly larger in OD than the rest of the spring's body and so will drag on the inside of the Cadet block. A few seconds applying the last 2 coils onto the fine-grit grinding wheel will soon enable it to slide freely.
Regards, Joe

This is my current Low-wall project a little 32/40 fitted with a GM tapered octagonal barrel 28".

Many thanks J. D. Steele, your comments on the .224 Maxi were just what I needed to know as well as what I was hoping to hear. Looks like next winters project is shaping up.

Looks like winchester has released low walls:

http://www.winchesterguns.com/...mily=002C&mid=534161

When I built my Low Wall 357 max, I chroneyed some 158 gr factory loads in the 26" bbrl. As I remember, they came out around 2200 fps, which is about the same as a 30-30! And, just for laughs, I fired a few 38 wadcutters, 357 Mags , and even a couple 38 S&W. Elevations were all over the place, but the 38 short S&Ws were quiet! Since I had recolor cased the action, I just used the factory Max. loads as proof loads, and shoot cast bullets at 1400 fps, now.

Keep us posted JD, I would like to see the complete build so I can pattern a project of my own after yours. As far as the chambering, how about a 225 Win.?

quote:

Originally posted by dwheels:
Keep us posted JD, I would like to see the complete build so I can pattern a project of my own after yours. As far as the chambering, how about a 225 Win.?

Unfortunately the 225 is far too large and high-pressure for the little action. IMO the original low walls, IF IN GOOD CONDITION, can take a Hornet @ 50K, a Bee @ 40K, a 357 @ 35-40K, a 225 or 30-30 @ 25-30K and a 44-40 or 45 Colt @ 20K. JMOFWIW, but I've seen a number of original low wall frames that were cracked through the sidewalls at the rear of the breech block mortise. One is a paperweight on my desk right now (grin) and I cannibalized the top tang of Richard Zorin's cracked one to repair one of mine that had the tang broken off and lost.

Apparently one of the primary causes of this cracking is the practice of rebarreling to the 223 Rem/5.56 NATO cartridge. I know it's very tempting but it WILL crack the frame eventually.

If reamers, new brass, dies and shellholders were more readily available, I'd consider the R2 Lovell or even the 25-20 Single Shot. But...
Regards, Joe

Have you considered the 25-35? I am playing with one I am completing o a FBW, and results are excellent in the single shot action with non-flat pointed bullets. I have been using Leverevolution (?) powder, and with loads that stay under 40Kpsi, per the loading data, I have gotten around 3300 fps with light bullets in a 29" barrel. It's a real step up from a lever action carbine. I hpe to get around 2900-3000 fps with a 100 gr hunting bullet.

I also have been doing a 222R. I chambered it with a 222 reamer and cut the groove. I had another one years ago that a smith chambered for me the same way. I am using both 222R Bertram brass (expensive) and necked down Maximum cases. I anneal them first, lightly lube with wax, then push in about halfway, rotate and finish. If you use a slow smooth stroe, the loss rate is about 2 cases out of fifty. Surprisingly, both the 222R cases and the Maxi cases need to be reamed due to thick necks.

Didn't mean to wander, but the point I was getting to was that using a 223 reamer gives you a chamber with a shorter neck for the Maxi, but if you use a 222 reamer, you end up with a longer neck and freebore, but a rifle that is chambered for a factory cartridge, without an expensive reamer. You also can use standard 222 dies without modification. There are tradeoffs as to long/short neck, freebore/seating depth etc, but I have never noticed any difference in accuracy. These are not benchrest rifles, so performance is not noticeably different. Just some thoughts on options.

Hornady's new factory version of the 17 Hornet would be my choice.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
Hornady's new factory version of the 17 Hornet would be my choice.

20 years ago this would have been my hands-down top choice for an original low wall. But these days I'm afflicted with AR, carpal tunnel, failing vision, etc etc ad infinitum and so my big fat fingers can no longer even feel the tiny 17-cal bullets to reload them.

Guess a lot would depend upon the cost of factory loads.....
Regards, Joe

J.D. -

I guess I am getting old...if it was my action, I'd barrel For both rimfire and centerfire...sort of a "switch barrel AND breech-block" rifle.

My first choice would be .22WRF (.22 Special) and .25-20 SS. Both hard to find store-bought ammo for, but there are ways around that. I wouldn't be using it for an everyday large varmint gun anyway...that's why God invented Hi-Walls .

One thing I would really like to have is a Low-wall chambered for .38 Special (NOT .357 Magnum or Maximum). In it I would commonly use .38 Long Colt brass with 125 gr. HP bullets. I've never met a coyote which wouldn't drop DRT to that little round, properly placed, and that chambering would remove any future temptation to use a less gentle load such as a +P .357 Mag or a .357 Max in it.

Hello Folks

Joe - what a great thread. I too have a Low Wall project action awaiting attention.

For the last 5 or more years I have been in a .257 phase, so for mine I've been considering 25-35, 256 magnum and 25-20.

In considering the 25-35 and 256 magnum, which would be more liable to someone (after me) overcooking it in each of these ??

Thanks

IMO any case of the 30-30 size is too large for the low wall. This unfortunately would include the 219 Zipper, 22 Savage Hi-Power (5.6x53R), 225 Win, 25-35 WCF, 7-30 Waters, 30-30, 32-40, 32 Special, 38-55 and 375 Win. I'm sure that a few older-cartridge factory loads and many handloads would be OK for at least a short time but all of them have too much potential for disaster to suit me. For the same reason I personally would not choose any of the larger-base revolver cartridges like the 44 Spec or 45 Colt.

The weak point of the low wall is not the barrel tenon OD, but rather the thrust against the breech face. The larger-diameter cartridges simply have too much potential for developing too much thrust. Sure, if I used pipsqueak loads I'd be OK but what about blunders, not to mention danger to the next owner!?

I've used the 25-20 Repeater (WCF) and the 256 Win Mag in low walls in the past with good success but the WCF is a little weak for what I'm seeking. 25-20 brass is smaller in OD but also weaker in construction, take your choice on the overloads (grin).
Glad you like the thread, regards, Joe

quote:

IMO any case of the 30-30 size is too large for the low wall. This unfortunately would include the 219 Zipper, 22 Savage Hi-Power (5.6x53R)...

Is this because you are using an old action?
Would the superior steel of a modern action sway you toward chambering in the .22HP?
I know Holland and Holland chambered one Webley 1902 rook action in .22HP (a personal favorite btw)and I can't imagine it is any stronger than a low-wall.

Have you considered .327 Federal?

I assume it is obvious I meant to say I would chamber for both RIMfire and centerfire in my switch-barrel and switch-block low-wall, IF I had both blocks.

quote:

Posted 07 March 2012 21:56 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
Hornady's new factory version of the 17 Hornet would be my choice.


20 years ago this would have been my hands-down top choice for an original low wall. But these days I'm afflicted with AR, carpal tunnel, failing vision, etc etc ad infinitum and so my big fat fingers can no longer even feel the tiny 17-cal bullets to reload them.

geez talk about coincidence I just finished loading ju some 17 ackley hornets, just after i loaded about 900 rds of 50 bmgs. I must have dropped bullets to every one that made it into the case

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

quote:

IMO any case of the 30-30 size is too large for the low wall. This unfortunately would include the 219 Zipper, 22 Savage Hi-Power (5.6x53R)...

Is this because you are using an old action?
Would the superior steel of a modern action sway you toward chambering in the .22HP?
I know Holland and Holland chambered one Webley 1902 rook action in .22HP (a personal favorite btw)and I can't imagine it is any stronger than a low-wall.

The new Browning low walls are a completely different design from the originals and are much much stronger. I don't know about the Pedersoli low walls.

The original design includes a stress concentration point at each of the top rear inside corners of the receiver's breechblock mortise. This top edge of the receiver is below the bore line and so the thrust tends to tilt/cock the top of the breechblock backwards; this tilting/cocking force acting above the bore line will concentrate all the thrust against the mortise's rear top corners instead of being more evenly distributed as in the high wall. Result? Cracks begin at the mortise's top rear edges and propagate outward and downward until the frame is no longer servicable.

I'm sure that modern steel would make a big difference but I'd hafta actually see the design and dimensions before commenting further. I have every confidence in Pedersoli and so I 'assume' that their low wall is strong enough for any of their factory chamberings. But, I've never actually seen a Pedersoli low wall yet.
Regards, Joe

Thanks JD, I had no idea that the originals were that weak. So, basically you are dealing with cartridges that are milder than those suited for a Contender. Whats the little 25 caliber for old lever guns? A 25-20? something similar. 25-35 if you wanted to push it. I don't have any experience with the rounds made from the .357 case but they sound interesting. A short, stubby .22 or .25 rimmed something. I guess you are on your own for caliber choice. Still keeep us up to date with pictures and descriptions of the work you will do. DW