Just can't seem to have a soild 5 shot wad.
I think part of the problem developing consistency with the NEF rifle is the fact that it was intended to be a 357 Magnum. I'm courious that if it had been designed to be a max, perhaps the rifling would have been different. (just a thought). I have seen potential in this rifle but not consistency. This is a group I tested today,


All five shots were 50 yards off of sandbags; two tight groups or one large one. A little frustrating. I am very new to this reloading so, I'm being very careful with each round.
I'm not giving up, I digging in!
Vance

Vance, that's just weird, but I don't think it has anything to do with the rifling. One five shot group does not mean much in itself, but if that's representative, I have a guess. WW 296 notoriously works in a narrow pressure range and 16.5 grains is a very light load for that powder and the Max. Take it up to 20 grains and see what happens. 20 grains is 15% under book max and a safe place to try, but hot enough to get a consistent burn.



Edit: Oops, read some posts on another thread. Vance already tried 21 grains. I'd still try 20 and half grains up to 23.



What may be happening now is that you are sometimes getting the correct burn and sometimes getting a near squib. Chronographing it would tell, but it would not surprise me if you were getting some shots as much as 300 fps slower than others.



WW 296/H 110 is one of the few powders in which light charges scare me.

Just a thought, but looking at the photo of what would be 2 nice groups and the vertical separation suggest perhaps it is a matter of bench technique. I have had similar experiences with lever guns and contender carbines. They can be very sensitive to forend placement on the rest. Try moving the rest so the front of the action is directly over the front bag. If your're already doing that then never mind. Good luck.

Vance,

Looks as if we are all giving you the same advice. It's pretty standard really.

By shooting the gun "off the bags" you'll have a better idea of whether or not it is the gun even though the groups won't be as tight. Placement of the tip barrel rifle with the resting point to the rear of the pivot is essential for consistent grouping.

The Hogdon manual shows 21 gr. H110 as max with the 180 gr. bullet they used in their tests. Based on my experience 23.5 gr. would be too much in the MY rifle. However, I don't have the current Hornady manual to refer to. I did go to the Winchester Manual and it shows a max of 19 gr. of W296 with a 180 gr. FMJ (presumably the same bullet as used in the Hogdon manual for H110). So by that manual you are within 15% of the max, but as I said before, 10% is the most that is usually recommended for reducing this powder from the max charge. However, I don't really think that the charge is the problem.

You will not get any grouping that tight when you're load is bad. I still think it is something to do with the rifle and it is NOT the barrel twist (just look at those groups). It has to be something that changes each time you shoot. Bag placement, lock-up, forearm bedding (? it would if you were resting on the forearm)... Paul on Handloads.com did get different results when he used washer(s) between his forearm and the mounting post or when he changed the torque on the forearm screw (I'm wondering, is the screw bottoming and then putting stress on the barrel? Just a thought.).

I find it interesting that so many claim such good accuracy with these guns and then you see so many instances of your sort of experience.

thought the 16.5 grains might be low as well , but the Nosler data for the 357max has that as the most accurate load tested with the 180 gr jhp. Hobie mentioned it might be a crimp problem, and I must confess that during the loading of those 5 rounds I was tinkering with the crimp on the first two. So Based on the Nosler manual I'll try it again and do all the crimps the same. The adjustment on the crimp I did not consider to be that significant, but I suppose it could make a difference. I wanted to make sure the crimp was enough to satisfy the W296 suggestions.

The 2 points of rest when I shoot are just behind the butt of the pistol-grip, and the steel area at the pivot. I try to keep the fore-end from contacting the bag all together.



vANCe

vANCe

Differences in the crimp often make a HUGE difference with this powder as I noted in my PM. I can easily see how you got two groups with two different crimps.



I should also note that you're using date from the Nosler manual with a Hornady bullet. There is not always a correlation.



I don't think this is an issue in your case where this seems to be the minimum charge with any bullet of this weight. However, when bullet design was "simpler", i.e. more alike, one could do such things but bullets with differences such as open bases (like the FMJ) or partitions can't be depended on to react to a particular powder charge with any degree of predictability. It is a complex relationship of powder burn time and the degree of resistance by the bullet to deformation. I don't believe it is necessarily responsible to do so now. Bullets are more sophisticated than simply being a cup and core.



As I said, this a different issue, but I thought it worth mentioning as you're a "new" reloader.

Hobie,
I was editing my post as you were delivering yours. Thanks for that other link, That guy has been through the wringer with that 357 NEF rifle.
vANCe

Vance,

You're certainly welcome for the link and yes, he has been through the wringer. I thought it might provide some insight for you.

You might note that Paul is now using Lil'Gun. I've found Lil'Gun to be very easy to get an accurate load with. This doesn't mean I think it is necessarily the best powder but I load it in several cases for excellent accuracy and performance. As soon as I empty a few cases, I'm going to be trying it in the .357 Max. If it performs as well as it has in those other cartridges, I'll be very pleased indeed.

Hobie:
Please do post your results with Lil'gun in the Max. I too have had problems with 296...

If it's going to shoot,... it's going to shoot with H4227.

Once again I tested 16.5 of 296. This time I seated the bullet at the deepest cannelure.
The Recipe:
Brass Remington RP
180gr xtp
16.5gr w296
primer Remington #7-1/2 SRBR
Distance 50 yards 10 shot group
The small group had 5 shots through it