I have a .22 K-Hornet which simply will not shoot well.

Having eliminated almost everything else I can think of, I am left wondering about the quality of Hornet brass generally.

This brass has all been properly "prepped"...that is, fire-formed, trimmed to uniform length, chamfered, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes de-burred, etc. etc.

I have not yet gauged the rims for thickness (and any headspace variations that would cause). I DO notice when chambering the loaded brass, though, that although most rounds almost fall into the chamber, some individual rounds take a great deal of force to fully seat in place for closing the breech-block.

Also, I note that Winchester brass seems to last a long time. Remington brass pulls in half about half way between the rim and the shoulder when removing it from the FL sizing die(s), after just 4 loadings or so. The Remington stuff does that no matter how well cleaned and lubed prior to sizing.

So, I ask YOU:

How consistent in thickness dimensions, temper, etc., is Hornet brass generally?

Are any brands consistently superior? How, and why?

What is acceptable life for Hornet brass? When should a person just throw it way and buy new?

Are there any "Kinks" you have adopted in your loading/shooting to get the best from your Hornet(s) and their brass?

in years of loading K hornets I don't believe i've ever had a bad one. The ww brass, especially if you can find some older stuff is much prefered. remmy never did figure out how to make hornet brass. I find the old stuff is a bit thinner and so i loose some in forming to splits, but what i have left is quite uniform. the new stuff has thicker rims etc. If your cadet isn't shooting I am going to doubt that is it the ammo as you described it. 1st thing I'd do is take the forend off and try a group. I had one is 17 mashburn bee that wouldn't shoot right and found that the forarm inletting was all screwed up, and fixing that did the trick. Next thing would be the barrel. There's so little to go wrong with these little rifles and for me, if it doesn't shoot I replace the barrel. If $$ is an issue, go find a good takeoff remmy barrel for $40 or so and turn it down, I've done that in a cadet in 222 and another in 218 mashburn bee. And by the way - make the new one in 256 - you'll really enjoy it

just had another thought - bullet weight and barrel twist. Would you be trying to use a 55 grain bullet in a 16" twist or the like, I don't think you could get enuf velocity to stabilize it.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
in years of loading K hornets I don't believe i've ever had a bad one. The ww brass, especially if you can find some older stuff is much prefered. remmy never did figure out how to make hornet brass. I find the old stuff is a bit thinner and so i loose some in forming to splits, but what i have left is quite uniform. the new stuff has thicker rims etc. If your cadet isn't shooting I am going to doubt that is it the ammo as you described it. 1st thing I'd do is take the forend off and try a group. I had one is 17 mashburn bee that wouldn't shoot right and found that the forarm inletting was all screwed up, and fixing that did the trick. Next thing would be the barrel. There's so little to go wrong with these little rifles and for me, if it doesn't shoot I replace the barrel. If $$ is an issue, go find a good takeoff remmy barrel for $40 or so and turn it down, I've done that in a cadet in 222 and another in 218 mashburn bee. And by the way - make the new one in 256 - you'll really enjoy it

Totally agree on the Win brass being better, but I've had some decent luck with nickel plated Rem brass. Might check bullet & bore diameter & bullet wt (twist).

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
just had another thought - bullet weight and barrel twist. Would you be trying to use a 55 grain bullet in a 16" twist or the like, I don't think you could get enuf velocity to stabilize it.

No, I've been trying both 40 and 45 grain Hornet bullets. Also had one short trial with the Hornady 35 grain V-MAX.

BTW, am going to try your above advice and shoot it sans any forend wood at all. Will just rest the heavy barrel on a nice, soft, sandbag.

It is obvious the previous owner had at least some issues with the forend, temporary or otherwise, as on removing it I find a small pressure point about about 1" long glassed into place about an inch back from the muzzle end of the forend. He always claimed the rifle would shoot 3/4" groups at 100 yards, but based on what I have seen with both his loads and mine, he must have meant at 100 inches not yards.

While I am at it, think I will find and try some good quality .223" diameter Hornet bullets. Once in a while with previous Hornets, I found that some individual rifles much preferred the smaller diameter slugs. Luckily, I have maybe 600 rounds of NOS unfired Wichester cases in the yellow boxes still on hand.

Hey Canuck, couldn't make either one of my Hornets shoot until I started using small pistol primers. Seriously made all the diff in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Taylor:
Hey Canuck, couldn't make either one of my Hornets shoot until I started using small pistol primers. Seriously made all the diff in the world.

Thanks, Mark. No one ever suggested that yet, but I should have thought to try it.

Before I do, which powder(s) did you end up using the pistol primers with?

RWS makes good brass if you don't mind $1.00 per case. Natchez Shooter's Supply had it on sale a while back.

12 years with the K-Hornet & this is what I now know: After fireforming, load regular round then necksize only. KHorns headspace on the shoulder whereas the Hornet uses rim. 40-45gr. bullets (Nosler, Hornady) superior with WW#296..my No. #1 powder of choice. Rem. 7 1/2 primers all the way. I love nickel plate but now prefer brass due to less chance of galling in die. Experiment with seating depth, I go 0.010"off lands, bulk factory (Win. Rem.) not always match accuracy. Real light bullets, e.g. 35gr. have a long jump to reach rifling but Nosler and Hornady 40gr. are my favorites.

Thanks, Ray. I pretty much agree with all you said...I only neck size my fire-formed Hornet brass, unless there is some obvious reason to do otherwise. I also found the 35 gr. bullets too short for cartridges I could feel comfortable with. I also use mainly Remington 7-1/2 primers, though am down to about my last 20,000 of those, so may have to be careful how many guns I have committed to them.

Still have to get to the range to try my rifle with no forend, as it sure as heck doesn't seem to shoot with one, as things stand now.

(Am pretty sure it isn't me, as I took my S&L "free rifle" to the range this last Sunday and was shooting fairly regular sub 0.5 MOA groups at 100 from the bench with iron sights...and it's a .30-06!)

Seriously, thanks again, I appreciate your taking the trouble to provide all that detail...definitely tends to confirm to me that the problem is my rifle, not my loads. Still have to try the pistol primers Mark suggested, though. Sometimes the least expected thing will provide the answer...

AC

A.C. What rifle is that?? I have a T/C with carbine length and pistol length barrels 'tho most shooting done on corvids.......the 'feathers really fly' When I have gone down to Bend to visit son, showed him how I could shoot animal crackers (grocery store item for sm. children) w/handgun @100 yds., Leu. 12X 0.5min dot. Hear Lil 'Gun is great (with lower presssures) but WW296 my favorite.......r in s.

Lil'Gun with Rem 1 1/2 Small Pistol Primers is the ticket for both of my Hornets. I also agree that Winchester brass is better than Rem.
Pete

quote:

Originally posted by ray in seattle:
A.C. What rifle is that?? I have a T/C with carbine length and pistol length barrels 'tho most shooting done on corvids.......the 'feathers really fly' When I have gone down to Bend to visit son, showed him how I could shoot animal crackers (grocery store item for sm. children) w/handgun @100 yds., Leu. 12X 0.5min dot. Hear Lil 'Gun is great (with lower presssures) but WW296 my favorite.......r in s.

Ray - It is a Martini Cadet from the estate of a close friend, Len Wilson. I can't recall whether Len was V.P. of the Cast Bullet Association, or Director of Competition, but he was one or the other...VeeP, I think..... Either way he loved to shoot, and he knew I really like the Martinis (rifles AND liquid ) so it was damned decent of him to arrange for me to get it after his passing.

That's one of the reasons I haven't rebarreled the gun to something easier to make shoot really, really well. My hope is that through all the info and possibilities I pick up here, I'll be able to get it shooting well again, sort-of as a working memorial to Leonard.

Thanks for the info on L'il Gun too,both you folk who've mentioned it. I've never tried that powder in anything, YET.

http://www.adamsguns.com/martini.htm

Try this approach A.C.........not any expert but believe pre-war Hornets were of a .223 bore and not of the current .224 type production. Then of course you have to look at condition of bore, crown, any bedding procedures, free float....you know the rest.....r in s.

Covered most everything above except: neck tension. That's a concern for the Hornet and the like for SURE. If you feel a different press handle pull on seating you have a neck tension problem. Different bullet pull effects accuracy, Plus on reloaded brass if you don't anneal occasionally, your ammo changes tension over time. In the ultimate, that is why loaded ammo necks split.

i use RWS brass, lasts a long time, re anneled the necks on some 50 of then, they still look good, i do belive that I have used then some 8 times..

Best of luck.

/C

AC, you've gotten a lot of good Hornet wisdom here. Funny thing about the brass; there seems to be a lot of respect for Win stuff while my experience over almost 60 yrs is that almost all my split necks and head separations while fireforming were with Super-X cases. They are also the lightest among my collection, RWS being the heaviest. I don't know when your Martini was put together but do know that most legacy Hornet barrels were rimfire barrels (including the Sav 23D, the Win 54 & 70 and my own Win 43); mine slugs at under .222" and has a 1:16 twist. I have found my best results were with .223" bullets of 35, 40 & 45gr. If you use .224" stuff and have a .222" barrel, stay with the thin jacketed Hornet types. The Hornet is not the easiest case to reload but when it works, it's soooo nice!

Bud W

Ac, sorry I was so long getting back with. Haven't been on for a while. I had 2 problem hornets. Both responded to the small pistol primers, in my case Winchester. Lil Gun IS the powder for the hornet. I size the cases with a Lee collet die, and crimp with the factory crimp die. These procedures turned poor shooters into something good. Still have to wring out my Contender barrel more, but the old Savage 219 is something special now.

Bud & Mark -

Thank you both for your support and input. I have not visited my Hornet for a couple of weeks...been taking a bit of a break shooting things that I know how to make perform. Had a nice day today at the range with a Sako Safari Grade in .338 Win Mag...tried three different kinds of factory ammo in it and all three shot well... Normally I don't shoot factory ammo, but had about 25 boxes on hand so thought it was time to burn some up. (200, 225, and 250 gr, bullets)

I am glad to hear you have a 219 Savage, Mark. I think those were great guns, especially at their original price. I had one for years ('69-'80) in Canada. It had three barrels, .30-30, .410 Shotgun, and .22 Hornet. It wore one of those old Redfield 3/4" tube 4-X scopes. Carried it behind the seat in my old Ford pickup in an original Savage canvas case, all over far northern Alberta. Shot foxes, grouse, and deer with it. Ate a lot of meals thanks to that gun, and got a fair number of furs, too. It was always reliably accurate with both Winchester factory loads, and my handloads. Would trade this Martini in a heart-beat to have it and its three barrels back.


Anyway, in another week or so, will be back to working on this darned Hornet to see if the advice I have gathered here contains the secret I'm looking for.

In the meantime, will spend NEXT weekend at the range with my original commercial Mauser '98 .375 sporter. At 75 yards with open iron sights and .270-grain Hornadys, it is still much more accurate than this particular Hornet is so far.

Would like to thank you all for your suggstions and moral suport in dealing with the accuacy problems in this K-Hornet.

Have finally got the rifle shooting as I had always hoped it would. Had it at the range today, and for 9 groups at 100 yards it averaged just under half an inch.

The tip which did the trick for me was gotten from an old friend of the famous trigger designer/maker Carl Kenyon, a Mr. Norm L. Last week at the range, Norm told me he had similar problems with his Kimber K-Hornet until he tried one particular load...15.0 grains of AA-1680 behind 40 grain Sierra HPs.

I was already using 1680, but not nearly that much of it.

So I went to the local emporium, bought some Sierra 40 gr. HP bullets, and loaded them up. Used WSR primers, and 13.6, 14.0, and 14.5 grs. of 1680 for starters. (Had intended to use Rem 7-1/2 primers, but had 50 cases already primed with the WSR igniters, so used them instead.)

The 13.6 grain load averaged about 5/8" for 3 groups. The 14.0 load averaged slightly under half an inch for its 3 groups....and the 14.5 grain load averaged almost exactly .25" for 3 groups, all at 100 yards with two different shooters. (I fired two groups with each load, the second shooter fired one group of each load.)

In my cases the 14.5 grains load may be very slightly compressed with the bullet fully seated, but it is hard to tell. If the cases will allow it, next week I will also try 14.8 and 15.0 grains of 1680.

(Please remember this is a K-Hornet, NOT a standard Hornet. The Accurate Arms loading manual shows 14.0 grains as the MAX load for a STANDARD HORNET, and I have had zero signs of any pressure-related problems so far with the 14.5 grains load. Still, as I have no book data for this load, I DO NOT recommend it to anyone, for any rifle. You should assume this load is too hot for your rifle and NOT use it unless you have safely and systematically worked up to that level with your own components in your own rifle.)

Incidentally, the 14.5 grain load is propelling the 40 grain Sierras at over 3,000 fps from both my gun and Norm's.

Once again, thanks very much guys. Without your comments and support I might have given up on this gun. Now, as it is approaching the height of "sage rat" season, I'll probably have to try to put it to work.