I was just wondering how common it was for gunsmiths these day to do classic wood to metal inletting without using any synthetic bedding compounds? I think this was descibed somewhere as "strain free" inletting where contact only occurs where stability and recoil asorbtion is needed.

Basically, I love the way the old Griffin & Howe rifles looked when the stock is removed, and I love the looks of even the old Mausers and their perfect wood to metal fit.

Thats what I want.

$$$$$$$$$$$

Okay that sounds bad, and not meant that way at all!

What I mean is how does a gunsmith typically bed, or inlet a rifle. I thought this was the standard to fit the metal and wood perfectly together. I do not want a lot of wood removed for bedding compounds.

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:
Okay that sounds bad, and not meant that way at all!

What I mean is how does a gunsmith typically bed, or inlet a rifle. I thought this was the standard to fit the metal and wood perfectly together. I do not want a lot of wood removed for bedding compounds.

It’s called craftsmanship...and that requires skill, time and patients...which normally equates to $$$$$.

Perhaps some of the custom Stockmakers will come on here and explain to you how, when they start getting close, they will coat the metalwork with Jarrow's inletting black or maybe use a smoke pot or something else to coat the metal. then they put that metal into the wood and use stockmakers screws to put a little pressure on the metal, which then leaves the black on the high spots on the wood. they take the metal out and use what are called inletting scrapers to scrape out tiny tiny bits of wood. this happens over and over again until basically the black covers all of the wood, meaning that all of the high spots in the wood have been removed and the metal and the wood fit together like a tight glove on your hand.

I have read somewhere that some stockmakers that do this real close wood to metal fit use a certain fixture to come out with a certain number of foot pounds of upward pressure on a barrel when they are done, although I don't know the reason for it.

In 1983 I attended Phil Pilkington's custom gunmaking class in Oklahoma. At that time he had a couple of stocks that he had just finished inletting. He passed one around to the class for us to look at......and he was pretty nervous during that exercise! The attached picture is one I snapped...sorry for the quality.

The stock is a perfect "negative" of the barreled action. As Don intimated, it's time consuming and tedious labor.....and costly. But it's perfect. Pilkington used pressure point pads on the barrel.......one that the barrel shoulder rested on, the other about three inches before the forearm tip. They were slightly raised squares of wood where the bottom of the barrel channel had been carefully scraped away to avoid other contact.

There are surely stockmakers that do this type of work today, but I truthfully don't know how they could improve upon the Pilkington stock I saw that day.

GV

I ask because a friend stopped by with a rifle built by a guy in Oregon that has 'custom' to him, but the entire action and barrel channel were compund and then it had been scraped away to form better to the gun in certain areas for free floating. I just hatedthe brown epoxy looking interior. I was hoping this just inst the norm!

When having a custom rifle built, one has to decide if he wants to spend a whole lot o' money for an inletting job as close to perfect as the very best stockmakers can produce, or if he wants to get an inletting that will provide excellent service in the field as well as be a work of art on the wall at home. I chose a mixture of the two in my rifle. I wanted a good inletting job, but told my gunsmith to fully free-float the barrel only under the breech diameter portion, the remainder to be totally free from contacting the stock at any point. I got what I wanted and it looks great, both inside and outside. A small amount of bedding compound was used but you'd never know it to look at the finished rifle.

If you want a total wood-to-metal fit without the use of bedding compound, you can have it-- just be prepared to pay through the nose for it.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

I have read somewhere that some stockmakers that do this real close wood to metal fit use a certain fixture to come out with a certain number of foot pounds of upward pressure on a barrel when they are done, although I don't know the reason for it.

The fixture holds the barreled action with a slight upward pressure on the barrel while inletting. When the bbl-action is spotted in, and the fixture removed, that pressure will be imparted to the stock as a pressure point on the barrel.

If you have a copy of the 1980 Gun Digest Review of Custom Guns, there is a picture of such a fixture used by Curt Crum (David Miller Custom Guns) on page 58.

GV

Most of the stocks done today are some sort of glass, kevlar, synthetic etc not wood. The level of craftmanship you're talking about cost more than the majority of folks can afford to pay. Gunsmiths make their bread n butter catering to the majority of hunters.

Frankly, with today's pantograph machines (run by an experienced and competant machinist)it isn't that much difficult to produce the inletting quality Grandview is talking about.

The difficulty level escalates when the inletting is machined with a milling machine. All of the stocks I have seen that Ottmar built were done without any bedding material. Same with Chic Worthing's stocks. I am no great shakes as a stockmaker, but even I can inlett a barreled action that looks professionaly done. That is, if the blank has been pantographed.

I live in western Washington. Which means hunting season is wet. I use a skim coat of Acraglass to seal the inletting against a waterlogged stock. I don't find it too objectionable. Some might, but I prefer the moisture protection.

I would think (correct me if I'm wrong) that your really wouldn't want only wood-to-metal contact--duetothe fact that wood can swell and shrink over time, and based on weather condition. Personally I'd prefer a small amount of a stable bedding compound, and in facton the one gun I "fitted" to a stock(custom Mauser)I used lots of bedding compound(but thin), and it seems to have worked well.

So what happens to the “perfect†wood to metal fitting done by a gunsmith in a dry climate when the rifle gets sent to a customer living and shooting in a high humidity area of the country...or visa-versa?

I've seen a couple stocks without compound that looked like they "poured" wood around the metal, they were works of Art indeed. I wish I were a good enough inletter to accomplish this and still have perfectly sealed wood. What I've been working towards is haveing close enough fit so that the Acraglass is more of a skim seal coat on the inside to where you can still see the wood grain through the expoxy. I'm not quite there yet but I'm working on it.
Epoxy inside is a bit unsightly and messy to work with but I haven't yet thought of a better way to ensure stability. I've been experimenting with clear epoxy sealers and maybe they might end up being a way to have the best of both worlds...............DJ

I really want just as Scrollcutter describes that he has seen himself, Ottmar, and Chic do. I would like the interior to be treated with something [!] and not just bare wood, but not something that makes it look like anything other than wood. I live within 5 miles of the Pacific Ocean in very northern California. We get humid and hot both, but I have worked with all wood rifles that have been fine, just do not leave them bare wood inside.

If you want it, go get it, assuming you want to pay for it.

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:
I really want just as Scrollcutter describes that he has seen himself, Ottmar, and Chic do. I would like the interior to be treated with something [!] and not just bare wood, but not something that makes it look like anything other than wood. I live within 5 miles of the Pacific Ocean in very northern California. We get humid and hot both, but I have worked with all wood rifles that have been fine, just do not leave them bare wood inside.

As Scrollcutter describes, the exercise is definitely achievable if care is taken. Make a pattern stock and glass in your barreled action. Then have that pattern duplicated on your blank. Depending upon the quality of the duplication, you should have only some fine scraping and chiseling left to achieve a close wood to metal fit.

You will really aid the quality of the final product by starting with a blank of sufficient density and proper grain flow. Dense wood will resist the compression between the guard screws and on the recoil lug area. Straight grain in the forearm will negate the tendency of the forearm to move and affect pressure on the barrel.

Wood is a "living" element that will be affected by humidity and temperature if not adequately sealed from these environmental affects. Like Scrollcutter and DJ, I use epoxy as a sealer. I melt it into the wood under heat and wipe off the excess. I then reinsert the barreled action coated with wax. I'll do this a couple of times, and if I've done my part inletting closely, there won't be any egregiously visible product above the wood. I do the same thing under grip cap and butt plate.

If I can't get a proper mating of recoil lug and wood, I'll glass that area. I'll do it as a matter of course for a magnum......or if I'm working with a softer piece of wood. My budget for a long time never permitted working with better wood.....so glassing the recoil area was usually a given.

I have many wood stocked rifles that haven't changed point of impact in several years. Can't remember a single one that was really problematic. I like to hunt with guns I've stocked myself. I just don't like plastic stocks or floated barrels. The "utility" of either has no practical advantage to me......and they lack personality and workmanship in my personal opinion. Your mileage may vary.

GV

quote:

Originally posted by GrandView:

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:
I really want just as Scrollcutter describes that he has seen himself, Ottmar, and Chic do. I would like the interior to be treated with something [!] and not just bare wood, but not something that makes it look like anything other than wood. I live within 5 miles of the Pacific Ocean in very northern California. We get humid and hot both, but I have worked with all wood rifles that have been fine, just do not leave them bare wood inside.

As Scrollcutter describes, the exercise is definitely achievable if care is taken. Make a pattern stock and glass in your barreled action. Then have that pattern duplicated on your blank. Depending upon the quality of the duplication, you should have only some fine scraping and chiseling left to achieve a close wood to metal fit.

You will really aid the quality of the final product by starting with a blank of sufficient density and proper grain flow. Dense wood will resist the compression between the guard screws and on the recoil lug area. Straight grain in the forearm will negate the tendency of the forearm to move and affect pressure on the barrel.

Wood is a "living" element that will be affected by humidity and temperature if not adequately sealed from these environmental affects. Like Scrollcutter and DJ, I use epoxy as a sealer. I melt it into the wood under heat and wipe off the excess. I then reinsert the barreled action coated with wax. I'll do this a couple of times, and if I've done my part inletting closely, there won't be any egregiously visible product above the wood. I do the same thing under grip cap and butt plate.

If I can't get a proper mating of recoil lug and wood, I'll glass that area. I'll do it as a matter of course for a magnum......or if I'm working with a softer piece of wood. My budget for a long time never permitted working with better wood.....so glassing the recoil area was usually a given.

I have many wood stocked rifles that haven't changed point of impact in several years. Can't remember a single one that was really problematic. I like to hunt with guns I've stocked myself. I just don't like plastic stocks or floated barrels. The "utility" of either has no practical advantage to me......and they lack personality and workmanship in my personal opinion. Your mileage may vary.

GV

Grandview

I would really be interested in hearing a more detailed explanation of your exact methods and materials that you use for "melting" epoxy sealer into the wood on your custom stocks. I have never heard of this before. thanks.

One thing I didn't see mentioned here is quality of the wood. Many years ago stock blanks were of such high quality that a wood to metal fit would result in a rifle that would maintain it's accuracy. Now-a-days, to get that kind of wood you will pay a high premium. Add to that the stocker's fee and you are talking about a high priced stock that most shooters would not consider paying. Using the average stock blank, you can still get the perfect wood to metal fit but the chances of it surviving beyond a few months are slim. That's where the glass bedding pays off. JMHO

Ray

The wood is no different today than it was some time ago. The best wood was Juglans regia and is today. The species is the same. The "best" wood was a lot cheaper back then but it was all in perspective. BTW, exhibition grade does not make any better wood than utility grade, it just looks better.

The comment about a stock lasting over a couple of months is ludicrous. If you do a poor job finishing and sealing a stock, it does not matter what the quality of the wood is. They are waterproof when they are sealed from the elements,anything else is just a poor job of finishing and it can absorb water. Sorry, just calling a spade a spade.

Back to the topic.

I inlet the metal to the wood and try for a close to perfect fit, whether it be a semi inlet, from a blank or a 1:1 hoenig type duplication. I do remove a skosh of wood in the inletting and seal internally, generally with epoxy. I used to try to rely on getting a 100% mating with the recoil lug. It is possible but a slight slip of a chisel and it is less than perfect so I normally glass bed the lug only. I also full contact the barrel and then see how it shoots. If it does not shoot well with full contact, I remove the wood full length with the excpetion of a 1/8" contact at the top of the barrel channel. That generally will work well and does not leave a gap.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Customstox:
The wood is no different today than it was some time ago. The best wood was Juglans regia and is today. The species is the same. The "best" wood was a lot cheaper back then but it was all in perspective. BTW, exhibition grade does not make any better wood than utility grade, it just looks better.

The comment about a stock lasting over a couple of months is ludicrous. If you do a poor job finishing and sealing a stock, it does not matter what the quality of the wood is. They are waterproof when they are sealed from the elements,anything else is just a poor job of finishing and it can absorb water. Sorry, just calling a spade a spade.

Mr Worthing Sir,

I guess our definitions of "some time ago" are different. I'm talking about the quality of wood 50 and more years ago, not the difference between now and 1970. Changing weather patterns, a World War, and the practice of expediting the growing, cutting, and seasoning of trees and the blanks for commercial purposes have made a big difference. And I don't think my comment about a stock holding it's shape for more than a few months was "ludicrous". Some of todays wood has such a high moisture content that no amount of sealing or waterproofing will do any good. I would guess that you have never worked with any of the really good wood from years ago and have to say that your comments are laughable (ludicrous). JMHO

Ray

GrandView,

Amazing workmanship on that Pilkington stock!

Got any more pics...?

Regards,
Dave

quote:

Some of todays wood has such a high moisture content that no amount of sealing or waterproofing will do any good.

Ray, not to pick on you...

It's probable that this is why your inletting won't hold up. Let the wood dry out before using it.

BTW, if the wood isn't cured you can put a pound of epoxy in the inletting and it still won't hold the inletting. The wood will shrink away from the bedding and the metal.

Roger

I no longer work with wood. 15 years ago I wouldn't be caught dead with a plastic stock but now that's what all my new guns are.

I didn't mean to imply that there is no good wood left in the world. Only that it is harder and harder to find and out of my fixed-income price range.

Mr Worthing

Please ignore my "laughable" remark. It was said in haste and the heat of the moment. A bad way for me to start a new year.

Ray

Ray, I certainly should have taken a lot more reasonable approach with my answer and offer my apology for my remark.

To elaborate though. Most of the English Walnut stock blanks that were available in the last 15 years was from plantings started by Luther Burbank around the Chico area over 100 years ago. Prices were very good as a lot of walnut orchards were removing trees that were no longer bearing well. The best people that had stocks to sell then do it the same way as the best ones do now, they dry them by air and never use a kiln. The major problems created by kiln drying shows immediately although there can be some stress problems also. I also echo what Roger said as far as using wood. I never touch it until it is stable as far a weight and use a highly accurate scale and plot the weight on the side of the blank.

I have managed to get my hands on some fairly high quality old blanks and I did not find any difference in the wood I can get from the Dressels, Preslik, or any other of the quality wood suppliers. The price however for very highly figured wood is becoming ludicrous ( far better place to use the word )

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Grandview

I would really be interested in hearing a more detailed explanation of your exact methods and materials that you use for "melting" epoxy sealer into the wood on your custom stocks. I have never heard of this before. thanks.

It's the same principle that a few people use for sealing the exterior of the stock......and also give a harder and more durable surface to the exterior.

Find the "runniest" 2-part epoxy you can find.....with a longer curing time. I've been using something called Pro-Poxy that I purchase at Menards. An 8oz jar of resin and an 8oz jar of hardener costs around $10.

I try to inlet as close as possible....I'm not using the epoxy to fill gaps, just to seal. I mix a small amount of the epoxy and spread it down the barrel channel with a cloth wrapped around my fingers. Spread about 1/32" thickness or less. Then immediately heat this with a hair dryer. The epoxy will become thinner and easy to move around. Hopefully a bit of it is soaking into the wood. Before it gets sticky and starts to set up, wipe it all off the surface with another clean cloth. I work fast....perhaps unnecessarily so.....but I've never had the epoxy set up on me before I get the waxed barreled action back into the wood. Do be sure to have the metal all waxed up before hand.

I use this same method for other areas that could use some stability. I'm not trying to fool anybody, and I use some tricks I've gotten from Chic and reading methods of other stockers. If there are small gaps around the bottom metal, around the tangs, or the sharp area where barrel meets the receiver....I spray these areas liberally with water until they are waterlogged, and then "push" the wood against the metal with a small polished "foot" of a 1/4" dowel. I either let it dry or dry it with a hair dryer. Then I will apply the epoxy and heat to drive some epoxy into those areas to hold them. My theory is the wet-and-moved-and-dried wood has open pores that I'm filling with epoxy. Whatever....I find these areas and edges are harder and less susceptable to damage after the epoxy treatment. I usually do this to the wood corner where barrel meets receiver halfway through the inletting process. It's easy for me to get careless when removing and reinserting the bbl action and damaging those areas. The epoxy makes it a little more sturdy and it's still easy to scrape down when required.

That's what I do, and it's worked for me. I don't think it's practically any better than when I used to lather the inside with Acraglas and set the metal in and squeeze out the excess.....but it somehow pleases me that I've at least tried to get the inletting as close on the inside as the visible exterior wood to metal.

GV

quote:

Originally posted by DavidC:
GrandView,

Amazing workmanship on that Pilkington stock!

Got any more pics...?

Regards,
Dave

I was just checking my photo album of the class, Dave. I have several pictures, but unfortunately none of them show the detail that would be very useful. The picture I attached previously was a digital "picture of a picture". Perhaps a scan would be better. I'll try to get some.

The class was over 22 years ago, and I'd like to think we were all mature, interested people in what Phil was presenting. However, there was a bunch of "Wow...this is really cool", flash bulbs popping, the stocks being passed around from hand to hand and posed for pictures, and Phil kinda hovering in the background surveying this spectacle. Phil was charging around $5K for labor at the time, and I can't imagine he was very comfortable watching the product of many hours floating around the room. Terry Blauwkamp of this forum was in the same class.....he can likely attest to the experience.

It was an enjoyable class. I think I'd get more out of it now than I did then. And I think the priciples taught then are still applicable today.

GV

quote:

I inlet the metal to the wood and try for a close to perfect fit, whether it be a semi inlet, from a blank or a 1:1 hoenig type duplication. I do remove a skosh of wood in the inletting and seal internally, generally with epoxy. I used to try to rely on getting a 100% mating with the recoil lug. It is possible but a slight slip of a chisel and it is less than perfect so I normally glass bed the lug only. I also full contact the barrel and then see how it shoots. If it does not shoot well with full contact, I remove the wood full length with the excpetion of a 1/8" contact at the top of the barrel channel. That generally will work well and does not leave a gap.

Chic Worthing

Chic---

Again, thank you!


This was what I was hoping to hear! I think that kind of stckmaker work would suite me just fine.