My philosophy has been to jump off the cliff and learn to fly on the way down, and, with that in mind, I'm working on a Dakota side swing safety.

I've modified the firing pin and the cocking piece per instructions, but now... I'm having trouble screwing the safety onto the bolt.

It seems to me this is because the safety is not in the cocked position.

Can anyone advise me as to how to proceed from here?

TIA,

flaco

May I also assume you have machined the 1/8" diameter detent in the back of the bolt body per the instructions and coordinates Dakota furnishes?

You should be able to get the safety screwed on a couple threads by holding the cocking piece in a vice (use the smooth one on the milling machine) and pulling the cocking piece and firing pin assy rearward and then turn the safety to the first position where it's on safe but you can open the action.

now you should be able to screw the shroud into the rear of the bolt.....good luck as it has only happened to me once!

Get a buttress tap for the bolt body and retap the dirt out of the threads and there will also be a little shavings come out and try the shroud again....it might or might not fit!!!

If it does you're home free and if it don't you need to gring the inside of the bolt body that surrounds the cocking cam. A few thou is usually all that's needed and the safety will fit.

Good luck guy!!

You say you don't think it is in the cocked position. If it is not cocked you will never get it screwed on. What you have to do is push the safety way down on the firing pin and put a penny or something else in between the safety and the cocking piece. then screw it on. then remove the penny.

Thanks, vapodog-

Yep, the smith I've been learning from had an indexed chuck that we put vertically on the mill, and that made positioning the bolt accurately for the detent a breeze.

I had previously lapped the buttress threads, so they're okay too.

We used a protractor to tilt the mill vise to 25 degrees to mill off the cocking piece, and I hand filed the firing pin bevel.

In theory, it should work.

So... hopefully all I have to do is find someone with hands stronger than mine to compress the spring, and then insert 22WRF's penny.

LOL.

Thanks,

flaco

Okay, here's the update:

Got the shroud--Dakota safety, I mean--threaded into the bolt body.

The action is hardly smooth (I guess I'm gonna have to stone the raceways), but the safety moves to the center position, and then to the rear bolt locking position.

Here's the rub: If I pull the trigger with the safety on, when I flip the toggle forward to the safety off position, the rifle fires.

So.

I consulted Kuhnhausen. He gives intructions for the PME safety (Hi Jim!) which is to some degree similar.

The Dakota instructions suggest that if the gun dry fires, it's necessary to take more off the sear--if I'm reading the destructions correctly, I haven't touched the sear at all so far, and am reluctant to do so--but... Kuhnhausen says that if you're using a commercial trigger--Timney in this case--it's possible to avoid dry fires by adjusting the cocking piece engagement ledge until at least .015"-.020" clearance exists.

Is there a chance I can solve the problem by merely adjusting the Timney sear in relation to the cocking piece?

And if so, how?

Thanks,

flaco

And yep, that damn cocking piece bit me again when I compressed the spring. You'd think a guy would learn?

So far all of my Dakota safeties have been installed to VZ-24 actions with Timney sportsman triggers. I've been fortunate to have not encountered this problem. Because of this I'm reluctant to give advice on something I've not done. Further communications get mucky trying to describe the fix and identifying the problem in words over the I'net.

This much I will try however.

When you close the action with the safety in the fire position and then move the safety to the first safe position it should pull the firing pin assy rearward a little bit. This removes the firing pin assy from the trigger assy and makes the gun unable to fire by pulling the trigger. The trigger should pull freely with nothing engaged to it. If this is not the case (as it appears in your situation) then there's something wrong and the gun is not safe!

I'm not of the opinion that any adjustment to the trigger is possible to fix this and I wouldn't focus on the trigger as the cure.

I'd set the bolt assy in a surface grinder and remove .005 from the front face of the area that engages the trigger assy. This should allow the firing pin assy to be .005 foreward of current position and allow the safety camming mechanism to more deeply engage the firing pin assy and remove it from the trigger assy.

Think this thru before removing metal as I said.....I've not had this experience.

FLACO-
all M70 safeties work the same, so the brand does not matter. I never touch the sear (except to polish it before starting the job) and only owrk on th ecocking piece. Draw everything on a piece of paper. It does not have to be fancy or to scale or anything-just draw the parts on a piece of paper. You will quickly see how everything works and what the relationship of the parts have different effects on the way the safety is not working. You will see where the critical dimensions an dangles are. Be off just a little on an angle or dimension, and the thing won't work correctly.

file a touch off the bottom of the cocking piece and it will move the piece forward. This will allow the lever to cam it back more. You want to see the cocking piece move back say .010-.025" as you move the lever from the "fire" to the "mid" position.

But draw it out so you truly understand the relationship of all of the parts. M70 safeties, OF ANY BRAND, are one item where you have a wonderful oppurtunity to make a big mistake in a very short period of time. Then you wind up like a dog chasing his tail for the next 4 hours trying to get everything back in the propper relationship. You can do it, and the sooner you have a good understanding of what is going on, the sooner you will get this one working correctly and safely.

Post here or ask your buddy if you are still having trouble doing this

and to clarify-when I said "bottom" of the cocking piece, I was talking about the part that hits the sear. It could be confusing the way I wrote it. After you get the safety working properly, stone the face very smooth. It is best to use a jig for this to keep everything square

It seems to me this issue has been covered before. I applaud the individual who wishes to learn by doing but it seems to me these Dakota safeties are being sold because they are cheaper than others. Be forewarned for anyone else; you get what you pay for! These and the Gentries should be avoided at all costs no matter how cheap they are.

Jim

Jim-
No offense and I sure am not trying to pick a fight, but I really can't believe you wrote that. Think about what is going on with the safety. Flaco and his buddy cut the angle on the cocking piece and did God knows what else to it, who knows exactly how long the bolt is, how far up in the slot the sear sits, or anything else about the action. So just how is Dakota or Gentry supposed to be able to magically make a safety that will work regardless of bolt length, cocking piece length, no matter where exactly the sear sits, how the "gunsmith" handles ANY of the above mentioned items or even the safety for that matter? I know that upou understand exactly what makes a safety tick, so I guess that is why I was surprised you wrote that.

I had to wrestle a Wisner safety a few weeks ago. Spent several hours getting it just like I wanted. Does that mean Jim does not know how to build asafety? Hell no! When he made the safety he had no idea of the relationship of ANY of the variables listed above. Especially the "gunsmith" and that term is being used incredibly loosely in this particular instance! His safety is fine and works as well as a Dakota or Gentry.

I am over reacing and am sorry about it now that I wrote it all. But it is typed, so I will post it anyway. I guess I am just tired of hearing Dakota getting beat up when they do nothing wrong.

Jim-
I just wanted to be doubly sure that I did not offend you ro come across as disrespectful. If I did offend you I appologize. I was just trying to make the point that we hvae different views on the matter. SOmetimes in electronic communication it is hard to judge the tone or what someone really meant. I was not trying to start a fight or anything and would never question your gun knowledge. I wrote the initial post with that in mind and hope you read it that way., If not, sorry about that!

Thanks, once again, vapodog and Marc_Stokeld-

Jim, I paid particular attention to the typical AR brouhaha that characterized the various side swing safety posts. Sorting through the usual opinions and speculation isn't easy, but I ended up with the Dakotas because fewer posters complained about them, and they didn't seem to have the fatal timing flaw that the Gentrys had.

When in doubt, read the instructions, and, if worse comes to worst follow them.

For those who may actually want to install a Dakota, here's my progress.

When I pulled the trigger with the safety on, I noticed that while the action did not fire, the striker assembly moved forward about .040".

The folks at Dakota were as helpful as they could be--not having the action there in hand--and their Mauser guy, Howard, suggests that the forward movement might give an indication of what needs to be taken off the sear.

He suggested sneaking up on it a little, so I'll initially remove about .035" from the sear.

This has the additional advantage of "Working on the cheapest part first," as Howard said he had learned in Gunsmithing School.

Overall, I'm impressed with the finish of the Dakota safety. They're really beautiful. I did have to lap the buttress threads--but doesn't this customize that safety to that bolt?--and apply a little judicious filing--with very small files--here and there.

But so far I have no regrets.

Thanks again,

flaco

Another thought-

I believe vaguely remember posts mentioning the possibility of milling down the sear so much that the sear on the trigger comes up to be captured in the sort of V on the bottom of the cocking piece.

Should I be concerned about this?

Thanks again,

flaco

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
These and the Gentries should be avoided at all costs no matter how cheap they are.

Jim

Six months ago I'd have agreed completely and after trying to attach my second one I finally returned it to Brownells for them to look at it. They returned all in stock to Dakota and when they were replaced they again returned them as non functional. (this per conversation directly with Brownells) Finally they returned my bolt to me as I gave up on dakota!

Then I decided to see if they had some in stock and they did and because I could always return them I ordered three and they installed easily. However I had a bit of experience and had bought a tap to help as well.

I still can't disagree with this statement as I've only fit them to VZ-24s and nothing else but they fit like a champ on the last three I've done.

I posted this as I earlier lamblasted Dakota over this loss in Quality conmtrol and felt I need to also say good things about them when it looks that way to me.

One needs a precision milling machine to machine the detent but the rest of it can be done with a good sharp wheel on a pedistal grinder as it's merely clearance.

I've not tried the Gentry or the Lapour so I'll just take Jim's word for it as to their character.

That said, I'd not hesitate to buy another Dakota safety as they work great and (lately) install with relative ease and functiopn on the action flawlessly.....and much better than a M-70 safety!

Didn't feel offended by any of the previous posts; thanks for the concern anyway. My point being that the Wisner/LaPour safeties are engineerd so much better than the others. There was a helluva lot less work getting those to fit and function than the Dakota or Gentry and I have done them all. The last was a Dakota I did for a gentleman from Kansas or Missouri, I forget which. I about pulled all of what was left of my hair out and I ain't got that much to start with anyway, before I had it fitted. It was just not engineered correctly. There should be no reason for all the extra tinkering it took.

I do have another one or two of those laying around and should get rid of them. They just ain't worth the hassle.

quote:

I do have another one or two of those laying around and should get rid of them. They just ain't worth the hassle.

I'll make you a deal....send them to me and if I can make them work I'll write you a check for their value from Brownells....if not I'll return them to you......fair enough?

quote:

Didn't feel offended by any of the previous posts

I certainly haven't been!!!!!

I tried the Dakota safety on a Charles Daly action I had been working on but was unable to get it to screw on far enough to index the lever pin. I called Dakota and altho they were helpful but could not solve the problem. I ended up sending it back to Brownell's and replaced it with a Gentry it worked perfect. I have used two Gentry safetys and both installed without any problems other than my mistakes in cutting the cocking piece.
Both were used on CD actions, I have never tried them on a military action. I assume by reading the other messages the military must have different tolerances.

Well.

The hardest part was compressing the mainspring in order to get the shroud on and off.

To mill the sear on the cocking piece.

We fit two.

We ended up taking about .040 off of one cocking piece. On our third try the safety functioned perfectly--no dry fires, even after pulling the trigger numerous times while the safety was on, then releasing the safety--but there was no perceptible camming action on the cocking piece.

So we chose to take another .005 off.

This resulted in just enough camming action. The safety functions perfectly.

We removed about .044 off the other cocking piece, in three passes.

And... from my perspective, the Dakota side swing safeties are not cheap. It's just that they're a little less expensive than some of the others.

If it seemed fitting was a tough job, it's just because my initial post reflected my total ignorance.

But ya gotta start somewhere.

flaco

And... the gunsmith I've been working with (Trinidad, '58) has a plan to create a fixture to compress Mauser mainsprings, so bolt shroud R&R is a one man job.

LOL.

I just called Brownell's to order more and they're out and they say planned delivery is in February.....with all the financial woes they have one might suspect they'd be trying to fill orders but maybe there's other issues.

In the meantime if someone has one and don't want it I'm open to buy it!!