I have been poking around the web looking for some info regarding Claw type scope mounts. No suprize at all that there is not a heck of a lot out there...

The claw mounts interest me due to their seemingly very rugged & simple design. Never having really examined a set in the flesh I am wondering what people who use them think of them and how they stack up next to all the other various QD designed available?

A few of the notable points I have come across with regard to claws are:

- very rugged.
- extremely quick to remove (can be done w/o looking at the rifle.)
- about as close to 100% repeatable as you can get in QD mounts.
- very difficult to setup and doubly so it you want to have 2 scopes in claw mounts setup on one rifle.
- EXPENSIVE... @ $2,000.00 for EAW/Suhl to $5-6,000.00 for Holland & Holland.

Is that assessment accurate? They seem like one of if not the very best QD mount option available with the only negative being the high price tag...


Regards,
Dave

I don't know if you will get a rapid reply as Lee Lebas is one of those gunsmiths that has too much to do. For prices and options though you might want to contact him directly at learmes@msn.com

Having just gone thru the hassle of scoping Merkel 141 I definitely cannot reccomend claw mounts from a cost standpoint. I cannot reccomend them from an installation standpoint either. The claw mounts as supplied from the manufactures (of the mount) require FAR too much hand fitting for me. The pivot mounts on the other had were installed by me in less than 15 minutes with very little work. Cost of the bare mounts was approximately the same. To install a second scope on my pivot mount all I would have to do is buy a second set of rings and adjust the scope. Very simple procedure. I cannot understand why the claw mounts can't be produced to the same degree of precision by the manufacturer as are the pivot mouts. All the modern double rifles I've handled have provisions in the rib for mounts and there is absolutely no reason to believe much fitting should be required. These comments do NOT apply to older rifles where there were obviously very few standard dimensions but on a modern manufacture rifle this should not be the case.

quote:

Originally posted by DavidC:
- EXPENSIVE... @ $2,000.00 for EAW/Suhl to $5-6,000.00 for Holland & Holland.

Is that assessment accurate? They seem like one of if not the very best QD mount option available with the only negative being the high price tag...

That's it in a nutshell, only the price isn't that bad. J. J. Perodeau (Enid, Oklahoma) does them for $800 to $1200 depending on the individual installation, last time I discussed it with him.

The claw is the finest detachable mount system there is, bar none, and is worth every dime. If you want to go cheap, the Talley type are functional, if less than ideal. The pivot type are no better, and are overpriced. I would never recommend them.
----------------------------------------------
Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Ein Hack or "claw mounts" is still the best of all the QD scopemounts systems..If done correctly. Many people think they are expensive..and I guess to some point I can understand especially if one has saved money for a cheaper rifle. I paid aprox $800 for a new clawmount installasion last year but the "footring" on the barrel was allready there from an older mount...but If that one too should have been applicated, it would have been another $500. Today all my rifles except for a pre-64 have clawmounts or Recknagels G9...it simply just works.

Claw mounts are far less of a mystery then in the past. CNC has made the front foot "claw" much more user friendly, especially from Akah or Recknagel...EAW still requires a fair amount of fitting. The rear still must be carefully machined.. If you want a scope to be attached and detached in micro seconds, there is still nothing better then the Claw mounts (aka Suhler mount)...cost....well, about $1500 is a fair esimate for a bolt action...the English versions (s) seem like a solution in search of a problem, but for restoration with newer optics...then $2000 may not be far off the mark...these are kind of a side mount claw mount....nightmare....

My personal issue with the older claw mounts is that there are some very usable classic firearms out there with the claw bases, but not the rings. This makes purchase of the rifle a gamble at best, if your to find a reasonable way to mount a scope properly.

Example: I came across a fine German made "Guild" rifle in 8x57. It was a beautiful, slender, well crafted rifle and the price wasn't too bad.. But it had claw mounts and the price to replace them would have easliy doubled the purchase price of the firearm. I let it go.
Had the mount system been like a BRNO 21H with sq double bridge receiver, I would have bought and been able to scope it resonably - without breaking the bank.
Gun shows are full of good, older rifles like that one, that folks just aren't going to touch.
JMHO.. BT

The problem with the old guns with claw mounts, is that the scopes were mountet - just to be mounted. Using them while shooting, seemed to be of little interest of the gunsmiths.

Duane Viebe has it right, and knows how to mount them, like on theese guns:


Here is a pick to show how it is NOT supposed to be, on a gun from Gammes:

quote:

Originally posted by DavidC:
I have been poking around the web looking for some info regarding Claw type scope mounts. No suprize at all that there is not a heck of a lot out there...

The claw mounts interest me due to their seemingly very rugged & simple design. Never having really examined a set in the flesh I am wondering what people who use them think of them and how they stack up next to all the other various QD designed available?

A few of the notable points I have come across with regard to claws are:

- very rugged.
- extremely quick to remove (can be done w/o looking at the rifle.)
- about as close to 100% repeatable as you can get in QD mounts.
- very difficult to setup and doubly so it you want to have 2 scopes in claw mounts setup on one rifle.
- EXPENSIVE... @ $2,000.00 for EAW/Suhl to $5-6,000.00 for Holland & Holland.

Is that assessment accurate? They seem like one of if not the very best QD mount option available with the only negative being the high price tag...


Regards,
Dave

I believe your assessment is correct. I was not aware of the current prices for such things. I had a set of rings made in 1984 for a J.P. Sauer double that had bases, but the scope and rings were long-gone.

Paul Jaeger Co, in PA did the work, and the rings cost me $450.00. That seemed to me to be plenty back then!

I think they must have sent the thing to Germany (at least the barrel)for the rings, as it took 18 months to get it back.......

They tested it for regulation with ammo I'd loaded (8X60RS). It shot both barrels into 2.5" @ 100 yards, with and without the scope in place with a 200 grain Nosler Partition bullet at 2620 FPS using 55.7 grains of H205 and RWS 7X65R cases used to make the brass.

Bent,
Just curious what is NOT right on the gun from Gammes.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Bent,
Just curious what is NOT right on the gun from Gammes.

Well, it is mounted at least 1,5 inch further back than on Viebe's guns. Would you like to have one of your guns scoped like that?


Viebe has placed the front ring were ever it ends up after placing the rear end were it should be, considering the eye-relief.

And do not tell me anybody is shaped to fit the gun from Gammes, or any crap about hoch-sit's or short eye relief on european scopes.

Well, sounds like I got most of it right...

Any other considerations and or positive features that I am missing?

How about the myriad other QD scope options? Aside from cost does anything compare with a properly setup claw mount?

I am thinking claw & likely Thom Burgess style QD mounts are right up at the top of the heap....

Regards,
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by DavidC:
How about the myriad other QD scope options? Aside from cost does anything compare with a properly setup claw mount?

You mean "other SD scope options", not QD. There are many detachable mount systems, but there is only one Quick Detachable scope mount system - the claw. The others are too slow for any real utility.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Sorry I commented I was merely curious. I think if you will scale the photos you will find the Zeiss is only about 1/2" further to the rear than the other. I measured scaled from the cocking piece not the comb. The upper stocks have a much more open grip than the bottom stock. I shoot a 13 1/2" stock and mount my scopes quite far back as I have a VERY short neck and a fat face. If you took any offense you TOOK it as I surely didn't mean any. The bottom gun appears to be a quality built gun and I would imagine someone ordered it that way.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by DavidC:
How about the myriad other QD scope options? Aside from cost does anything compare with a properly setup claw mount?

You mean "other SD scope options", not QD. There are many detachable mount systems, but there is only one Quick Detachable scope mount system - the claw. The others are too slow for any real utility.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

yep..
The second fastest are the Recknagel G9..about 1/2 second behind the claw..

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Sorry I commented I was merely curious. I think if you will scale the photos you will find the Zeiss is only about 1/2" further to the rear than the other. I measured scaled from the cocking piece not the comb. The upper stocks have a much more open grip than the bottom stock. I shoot a 13 1/2" stock and mount my scopes quite far back as I have a VERY short neck and a fat face. If you took any offense you TOOK it as I surely didn't mean any. The bottom gun appears to be a quality built gun and I would imagine someone ordered it that way.

Sorry if I sounded agrivated - it was not meant on you! But we have discusses this before, and I am a bit flabbergasted over the opinions about some european gunmakers; "It's a 15K gun, of course it is nothing wrong with it".
Look at that scope on the Gammes. It is a standard Zeiss with 8 cm eyerelief - or roughly 3 2/16". I have mounted 100's of them, and nearly all have been mounted as far to the front as possible. On this pick, knowing the tube is 30mm, it is at least that much to far to the rear.
See, theese old grumpy gunsmiths are Gods, and noone argues with them.
Here is another pick of a Ritterbush rifle, very bad pick, but one gets the idea:


Here, on this high-end rifle, the same scope has been placed even another inch further to the rear, leaving the scope hanging above the comb of the rifle. Super rifle, but I'd rather have BasementBilly install Weaver bases on it with a Black&Decker in his greasy paws.

I recently had claw mounts installed on a Drilling and a 450/400 double rifle. JJ Perodeau did the work.

I specified that I wanted the scopes as low as possible. JJ took some measurements and got the eyerelief perfect.


I have used several different mounts over the years US and European.

My favorite factory mounts are the Blaser.

I agree with 400 Nitro, claw mounts are the best, if mounted properly.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Bent,
Just curious what is NOT right on the gun from Gammes.

Well, it is mounted at least 1,5 inch further back than on Viebe's guns. Would you like to have one of your guns scoped like that?


Viebe has placed the front ring were ever it ends up after placing the rear end were it should be, considering the eye-relief.

And do not tell me anybody is shaped to fit the gun from Gammes, or any crap about hoch-sit's or short eye relief on european scopes.

Yep! Thre's NO WAY I could use that scope on that otherwise beautiful rifle. Damn few could-have to be some kind of a double-jointed freak with a neck like a backwards giraffe.......

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by DavidC:
How about the myriad other QD scope options? Aside from cost does anything compare with a properly setup claw mount?

You mean "other SD scope options", not QD. There are many detachable mount systems, but there is only one Quick Detachable scope mount system - the claw. The others are too slow for any real utility.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Having used a Paul Jaeger sidemount on a Model 70 .375 H&H, I sort of disagree. Yes, the claw mount is faster by a millisecond or so, but either mount makes you take the rifle down from your shoulder to take the scope off. With the Jaeger, all one need do is flip the ONE lock lever half a turn, push the button and slide the scope off. It MIGHT take two seconds, but no longer.