I hope to have time over the holidays to get Ben's rifle rust blued. This will be my first attempt so any hints would be appreciated. A few questions that I have are.
1. What grit do you polish to.
2. What about removing the old blue from places you do not want to polish like inside the action and in the bottom of lettering and other little nooks and crannies that you can not readily get to? If properly degreased will these areas still form rust, or should I chemically remove the blue from these areas first?
3. I seldom have a full day to work on something. How long can you let the parts rust before carding. If I can't get back to them for a few days should the parts be boiled and carded before being left?
4. What do you post treat with. Midway says to dip the parts in linseed oil?
5. How critical is the degreasing? After polishing can I just blast the parts good with brake-clean, or should I use Brownells 909?

I bought Brownells rust blue and carding wheels. What else will I need? We do parkerizing all the time, so I already have tanks and burners.

Much thanks for any and all advice.

John

1. 320-400
2. Those areas will rust over the old blue
3. If the solution is left on too long without boiling, pitting will likely occur.
4. A good quality gun oil, not linseed.
5. There's no such thing as too clean.
6. Degreased steel wool.

quote:

3. I seldom have a full day to work on something. How long can you let the parts rust before carding. If I can't get back to them for a few days should the parts be boiled and carded before being left?

In my experience you can very, very quickly bring on that fine rust coating after applying the bluing solution.

Just place the parts somewhere humid.

An ideal place "at home" would be the bathroom whilst you take a hot shower! Or a long soak in a hot bath.

In fact I've been able to re-boil (a stabilised barrel that has been carded), apply the rusting solution, get the fine rust coating (in humid conditions) and then boil again to stabilise it in under one hour.

A "cheat" if you have nowhere humid to bring on the rust is to keep your boiling tank at a steam point (not boiling point) and suspend your barrel, horizontally, about one foot about it.

Then just turn as the rust develops on it like using an fashioned spit roast!

For small parts, again to "cheat" and bring on that fine rust coating I use a chip frying pan with a wire basket.

Put the wire basket in the "drain" position (with the small parts in it) and bring to steam point just an inch of water in the bottom of the pan.

Here's one I did earlier. A "rush job" done over a long weekend of three days with three rustings each day with the last of each of those three being left overnight to rust.

Starting on Thursday evening and off to the auction house on Tuesday morning!

So using the "cheat" steaming method I've described.

The barrel and ALL the furniture. Top lever, safety catch, triggers, trigger guard, forend iron and the pin through the lockplate.

The only things that I didn't touch were the lockplates and the action itself.

Once it is boiled BUT NOT carded then yes, the part is stabilised and can be left.

If you boil and THEN it is then carded you have, essentially, the same risk as if you left a finished state gun barrel lying about on your premises without a wipe with an oily rag.

Thank you, both are very helpful replies. Anyone else?

John

quote:

If I can't get back to them for a few days should the parts be boiled and carded before being left?

Just to re-emphaise. It is "safe" immediately after boiling (which neutralises the rust and turns it black) if it is then left and not carded.

Degreasing is the most important part of it all. I use acetone for rapidity and in fact on the gun I showed in the picture that was all acetone degreased AS WAS THE WIRE WOOL TO CARD IT.

If you do it right the first time and make sure you don't touch the parts you do only need to degrease ONCE!

Surgical forceps are good for holding parts to keep "greasy fingers" off! A piece of heavy gauge bent wire for the barrels.

You can make a sort of "M" shape for a double gun's barrels from this bent wire.

Here in UK the people that do this as a profession (and its is all they do re-blacking) degrease with chalk powder.

I find that acetone and degreased wire wool soaked in acetone is easier!

you can also use simple green to degrease, the nice thing about it being that it is biodegradable. the one time I tried rust bluing I had a fantastic color after the first coat, but f-ed the whole job up when I boiled it off but forgot to degrease my wifes pot. got some spots on it. Never did polish it out and retry, lost my energy.

Red

It could be worthwile on a first try to use
distilled water. Water with minerals can be
a real headache.
Good Luck!

quote:

It could be worthwhile on a first try to use distilled water. Water with minerals can be
a real headache.

+1 to the above! Although where I am the tap water works OK. Others use rainwater.

Our tap water here is so hard you can use a fork on it. I had planned on using distilled water.

Thanks again for all the help.

John

I do a lot of it and being somewhat lazy, I folllow the quicker-is-better path.

First, I agree with everything above. I use brake cleaner to degrease larger parts like actions and barrels and acetone for small parts. I buy a box of the vinyl medical gloves (100 count) so I don't have to worry about fingerprints. After the first go-around with steel wool, I bought one of the fine stainless wire wheels from Half Moon Rifle Shop and never looked back. Essential tool once you've used one. I made an arbor with a cheap 1/4-20 srew and chuck it in a hand drill. I have three small stainless "toothbrushes" of different sizes for small parts and still use small swabs of clean steel wool to get into tight spots like bolt raceways and lug recesses.

Here on the Gulf Coast an hour or two of summer humidity is enough rusting per pass. When it drys up in the winter I make a pass or two with a steam iron over the parts. Be carful not to let it drool water drops on the parts. The bathroom is a good trick; hadn't thought of that one yet.

Never leave a rusted and unboiled one overnight unless you're looking for that "antique" look. Once the surface is well rusted the only direction to go is down into the steel. You can get pits you won't like. I didn't know they were stable if you don't card them. Good to know!

I keep a little 28% ammonia around for blueing and for copper removal in bad bores. A tablespoon or two added to the water after the last boil but before you remove the part will neutralize any acid in the water that came in with the part and prevent the dreaded sneaky rust that sometimes breaks out a few days later if you inadvertantly missed a really clean rinse.

Distilled water is fine, I guess. It costs more that R/O water though. I have a 5 gallon water cooler jug dedicated to blueing that I fill at the local water kiosk for 20 cents a gallon. Makes really good beer, for that matter

Forgot to mention, card wheel speed ,500-600 rpm.

If during the process, you find a small mark or streak appear in an otherwise perfectly acceptable finish, you can remove the mark/streak w/scotchbrite and move on.

I use either the gray or maroon colored pads. They never have the danger of having oil in them. A small square cut and used for the removal is then discarded after the one time so as not to carry the crud on to another use.

They will remove the spot along with some of the blue of course and with some careful handling you can blend the area into the surrounding finish.
The very next coating will usually recover the finish look and from there on the spot or streak will never be seen again.

You will not have to rebuild spot with finish with the total number of coats you have on it at that point already. A base still exists even though you have removed some of the color with the pad.

I use A/C condensate water collected during the summer months and held in a couple of 35gal plastic trash cans w/lid. Also alot of gallon milk containers!
I've used snow melt at times also, but it's best to allow a quantity of it to melt and settle out in a large container like the trash container. It works great, but there can be alot of dirt and other junk in it.
..and maybe you're lucky enough not to have snow in the first place..

I use Brownell's own brand of bluing solution, but I dilute it 50% with distilled water. When I used to use it straight out of the bottle I sometimes had problems with pitting. Now that I dilute the product I never have that problem and get superlative results. It requires more cycles this way, sometimes ten or twelve, but I've got lots of time.

Some advise putting a small glass container of the bluing solution in the boiling tank so as to heat it. Heat being of cours a catalyst to speed up any chemical reaction.

The gun shown in the picture I just used pre-mixed French "Armistol Super Bronzage". The bottle says it is 1% copper sulphate, 3% nitric acid, 5% ferric chloride.

I did not pre-heat it just used it at room temperature swabbed on direct from the bottle.

Tigertate
Could you please post some photos of your setup.

I pan to try rust bluing my Remington 512 is the first attempt. I would appreciate some help

1. Do I need to spin the barreled action in a lathe?
2. I have made up a solution of nitric acid, hydrochloric acid and degreased steel wool. Some rain water got into the solution - say 30% more. Is this a problem? Can I still use the solution.

I degreased the steel wool with first dish washing soap and then with acetone. Acetone certainly removed a lot of gunk & so I gave it a second pass.

I saw a few small shiny patches floating on the bluing solution & thought it might have been a drop of oil from the steel that was missed and have skimmed it off.

I look forward to seeing some photos of work in progress.

I can take some pics but it's pretty easy to visualize. I got the idea for my boiling pan here on AR years ago. Dago Red, wasn't it you who discussed a piece of aluminum gutter? I put two end caps on it and sealed them with hi-temp automotive silicone gasket maker.

I set it on two auto jack stands adjusted so it straddles the burner of my shrimp boiler. I use the same shrimp boiler to make my beer, BTW. Different pot than for the seafood, of course. The round burner only causes a hard boil in the center third of the gutter section but there is enough heat in the rest of the water to convert all of a barreled action at once.

I run a piece of 1/4 galvanized cable or fishing leader through the bore depending on caliber to lift the piece in and out.

I use my wife's stainless pots for smaller parts. Boil 'em on the stove. I use a commercial blueing solution called "Gun Goddes " sold here in the US. I have seen many home reciepies on the net and would guess they all work well enough. The important thing to remember is the weaker the acid, the finer grained the rusting will be and hence the higher polish you can maintain while bluing. Strong solutions cause a more satin look.

I'll try to get some pics up tomorrow after the festivities. Meanwhile here's a shot of my 505 Gibbs I did last month. Stock isn't done yet but the metal is:



This is pretty typical for a hobby job. I think rust blueing is probably the easiest and most satisfying thing I do related to gunsmithing.

Forgot to address #1: No! All of the polishing should be parallel with the bore. I have "shoe-shined" barrels with the rougher grits of emory rolls to take out pits or blemishes but you should always do the final finish lenghtways. Takes longer but looks correct.

Nice job Harry, you need to help me sometime.

Anytime! You polish it; I'll blue it!

quote:

Forgot to address #1: No! All of the polishing should be parallel with the bore. I have "shoe-shined" barrels with the rougher grits of emory rolls to take out pits or blemishes but you should always do the final finish lenghtways. Takes longer but looks correct.

What he said +1.

this was with Pilkingtons, prep metal, rust 4hrs, boil, card, repeat. SS tank, plain old NYC tap water and an LP camp stove.

Swed was the first one:



Yugo was second:

Tiggertate

thanks for the info & the pictures. the 505 looks awesome.

Could you post a picture of your set up for using the wire wheel etc. in polishing the barreled action.

Cheers

All of the tips are great! How many of you remove the barrel before rust bluing?

Thanks,

Man, I wish I'd known I could have just scotch brighted those spots out! I would have kept with it and maybe not lost my oomph at that point.

Tigger I don't remember if I gave that idea, but sounds like the way I planned to handle it, except I was going to put across my double burner coleman.

It sounds like you all card by hand, I bought a carding wheel, but the motor I bought at the time turned too slow, my other motor turns too fast. I was told that about 800 rpm was perfect. but I'll just do by hand when I try it again. I have an old 22lr that needs to be reblued. good project. I got and used the gun goddess, and did the shower method, which I think was suggested to me by D'arcy Echols. However, I've always wanted a rust cabinet, and in March I think that the hotrod shop is moving from my place to my uncls new place and I might have room for one finally.

Red

Here is the outdoor set up that I had for the project on Stockmaker Show and Tell on page 3.

I bought the stainless pan for $2 and the Brownell's wire wheel for about $15. A little steel wool will by used in the areas where the wheel can't go. I used a drill motor held in the vise for the carding off of the rust. I will go to a slower drill motor of about 600 rpm's when I can get back to the project. The heat is a propane outdoor cooker with the cover removed. It is all you need to boil water.

Here's my humble little bluing set. The gutter looks rough and it is, but a little Dawm, a good rinse and works like a champ:



The carding wheel looks even rougher but it still works like the day I bought it many guns ago:





The gutter is a little unstable on one side so you always want to work from the "safe" side to avoid getting scalded.

I have no idea how fast its turning the carding wheel; whatever the drill can put out.

K

Thanks. I used the fine hair wire wheels too. I think the sharp edges will hold up better with hand finish.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Richj

Would like to compliment you on your work. Looks very nice.

K

I've done hot caustic bluing for around 20 yrs or so and have never had a problem.
Wanted to try the rust blue so ordered a bottle of the brownells. Said it was enough for 2 to 3 guns. I knew something was wrong when the bottle was dang near empty and still didnt have a good finish.
Went by the directions and kept everything as clean as possiable. Now when I ordered the stuff it was typical hot humid Oklahoma weather but the day I started cold front came in and the humidity went down as well.
QUESTION: In order for the rust to do its best...It is better to have it in a high humity enviroment, the higher the better-right?
Want to try it again so just wandering where I might have went wrong, shouldnt be that hard to do!

Greenr used to advise a "steam oven" in fact. That is an oven that had a tray of water inside at boiling point to make an oven full of stream.

Heat is in fact a catalyst for most chemical reactions and will, like any catalyst, speed up that reaction.

All that is needed with your blue solution is just a wipe. You don't need, or want, the metal "running" or "dripping" with it.

You should easily have enough in a teaspoon full of solution to make one complete pass on a set of double gun barrels and the rest of the furniture.

Hotter and wetter is better as far as time goes. At least htat has been my experience on the Gulf Coast. I never had to make a rusting box; I use the great outdoors. I have to use the iron trick in weather like we're having now and I move it indoors to get the temp up.

I also have had situations where I didn't get red color on subsequent applications of acid but it boiled and turned blacker anyway. So I quit worrying about it and do my repetitions until I get the color I want.

Thanks guys, I think that was where most of the problems came, low humidty...I'll try again. May even build a damp box.
I remember doing a set of soft soldered shotgun barrels for a customer a few years back with a product called Belgium Blue, and got instant results and a really nice finish after several apps.

OK, I am on about 8 rust cycles and I seem to be stuck at a light gray color. Very little if any change with each application. What am I doing wrong, or is this typical? It is 20 deg outside and dty in the shop, so I have been putting the parts in the cellar to rust. Very hi humidity, but it is only about 55 degrees. They seem to b e rusting OK, in fact one part rusted to much and I got a little pitting. The instructions say 6-20 applications may be needed. I'll be another week to get 20 applications.

John

My best bluing comes at 85-90 degrees with high humidity (pan of water in the rust box) in the winter. In the summer I hang it in my shop and it takes 2-4 hours. Usually the 3d coating starts the bluing. 6-8 coats is finish time. I use Laurel Mountain.

What do you fellows do to protect the bore?

I'm not a professional but I just used wooden dowel rods that I sanded down into a taper and tapped in. Then you get a pair on handles to hold it with too. I read somewhere about painting the inside with lacquer I think but I never have had any issues with the plugs coming out or anything, but I sanded a sort of step in the dowel for a couple inches too before the tapered part.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
What do you fellows do to protect the bore?

I've coated the bore with lacquer then removed it with acetone when the job is done. The process worked but I decided it was an unnecessary step.

Now I degrease the bore before starting the job. When the barrel is removed from the boiling water, it drys immediately. I run a clean patch using a degreased rod through the bore to remove boiling crud.

quote:

Originally posted by gasgunner:
OK, I am on about 8 rust cycles and I seem to be stuck at a light gray color. Very little if any change with each application. What am I doing wrong, or is this typical? It is 20 deg outside and dty in the shop, so I have been putting the parts in the cellar to rust. Very hi humidity, but it is only about 55 degrees. They seem to b e rusting OK, in fact one part rusted to much and I got a little pitting. The instructions say 6-20 applications may be needed. I'll be another week to get 20 applications. 

John

If you're at eight cycles with poor results, something's wrong.

It sounds to me that your air moisture is too low. Even though the basement has very high humidity, at 55 degrees the actual amount of water in the air may be too little for proper rusting.

When I blue I like 85-90F and around 85%RH. To get this, I have to use a damp box. Two to three hours and I have a nice even fine red rust and I gets a complete job with as few a three cycles(I usually go 5-6 cycles).

The above has worked equally well with Gun Goddess, Laurel Mtn and a locally brewed mix based on the Swiss Armoury formula.

Another thing to consider is your boiling water. Apparently it can make a big difference to the quality of the job. I stick to distilled water bought from the local pharmacy.

So, you all take your barrels off of the action for this job?????

If you're at eight cycles with poor results, something's wrong.

It sounds to me that your air moisture is too low. Even though the basement has very high humidity, at 55 degrees the actual amount of water in the air may be too little for proper rusting.

When I blue I like 85-90F and around 85%RH. To get this, I have to use a damp box. Two to three hours and I have a nice even fine red rust and I gets a complete job with as few a three cycles(I usually go 5-6 cycles).

The above has worked equally well with Gun Goddess, Laurel Mtn and a locally brewed mix based on the Swiss Armoury formula.

Another thing to consider is your boiling water. Apparently it can make a big difference to the quality of the job. I stick to distilled water bought from the local pharmacy.[/QUOTE]

I think you hit it. This last coat I made up a makeshift damp box and got the temp up to about 70 deg and the humidity up to about 50%. Took a while, but the rust that formed was much different from the rust that formed in the cooler environment, and after carding it was much darker. I'll see what I have in the morning.

Thank you,
John