I rebarrel Mauser recievers,So I thought another
project would be to build a AR-15.

A dollar is NEVER worth MORE than the day that you spend it.

quote:

Originally posted by 4t1mag:
I rebarrel Mauser recievers,So I thought another
project would be to build a AR-15.

If you buy an AR15 then you will in all likelyhood have to tweak it to get it to perform it's best, so why not just start from scratch. That's how I would approach it if I had the time on my hands.

I would say it depends on a variety of things...

1. How much AR-15 stuff do you own now? Are you going to have to buy EVERYTHING?

2. Do you have all the assembly tools required?

3. How much knowledge do you have about putting ARs together so they run correctly?Also, do you own at least a couple of the detailed "building" books to refer to in case you run into problems?

4. Do you get trade discounts (have an FFL), or will you have to pay retail for parts and tools?

5. How many are you going to build? Will there be any "economy of scale" accomplished?

If the answer to those questions is "no", let me ask you another question...

"Is it cheaper to buy a Lincoln Navigator new and completely assembled, or would it be cheaper to buy each and every part, the correct tools, and the shop/assembly manuals and assemble and tune it yourself?"

The Navigator example is an eggageration, but the principal for arriving at the answer may be pretty much the same, depending on your knowledge and current situation vis-a-vis parts, tools, and knowledge.

You can probably save a little building your own. Here is a great web site with tons of information:
http://www.ar15.com/
They offer a step by step guide for building your own from the smallest step to installing the barrel.

As I own a few I thought I would pop my $.002 worth of input .

I've bought uppers lowers parts pieces and complete units . I would agree with AC .

The best Bushmaster I own shoots so well , I just never had to tweak it . I purchased it complete .

Way back there was a price incentive to build your own . Now Parts and pieces are costly .
IMO; I see little if any advantage .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
The best Bushmaster I own shoots so well , I just never had to tweak it . I purchased it complete .

That's a shame.

you can always build for less than you can buy IF you don't hose yourself on the shipping. but there isn't that much to be gained outside of a mediocre savings. there is precious little craftsmanship in assembling an AR from quality components, and that's all it is: assembly. like legos. the toughest part is installing a barrel, which requires a $15 barrel wrench and a $20 receiver block. the headspacing was done for you at the factory, when the barrel extension was installed.

with a reputable manufacturer's assembled rifle, you get a warranty that the rifle will shoot. with your own assembly, you save like $50 and the pride of an hour's worth of round-peg-round-hole assembly.

I have done both. I recommend others do the same.

And the BEST upper is?

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
And the BEST upper is?

Flat top!

Westpac ; Yes it is a shame .310" at 100 Yd. is the best it does now for # 15 rounds with called fouler .

You being a Smith know how hard that is to build . I lucked out when I bought those two brand new XM15 E2S 20" target H Bars years ago . I haven't even fired the other one yet how sweet is that !. Still NIB

Besides as all of you know or should know I'M NO GUNSMITH !.
Break down and reassembly and putting in parts doesn't even qualify me nor does making or redoing stocks !.

I believe Clint Eastwood said it best ,
" Mans got to know his limitations " !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

I don't know much about AR15's. They look fun and someday I would like a varmint configuration to play with.

If you do build your own,it would be nice to make it look something like this!

quote:

Originally posted by 4t1mag:
I rebarrel Mauser recievers,So I thought another
project would be to build a AR-15.

I have been researching this the last couple of months and I found it also depends on what you want it to do.

There are some pretty cheap kits out there if you just want to build a cheap one. You can also watch for components that guys are selling and put one together that way.

I want an accurate upper, and that means I need to upgrade the barrel. Some of the upper manufacturers have a pretty good barrel discount with the barrel makers and can sell me a complete upper cheaper than I can build it.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
.310" at 100 Yd. is the best it does now for # 15 rounds with called fouler

I believe Clint Eastwood said it best ,
" Mans got to know his limitations " !.

Oh, don't be so hard on yourself. With a little practice who knows what you will be capable of.

I've studied this issue myself and believe that I'll only be able to answer this question by building one. So, since Uncle Sam is going to send me some money in May that I'm supposed to use to stimulate the economy, I'm going to be a good American and buy an AR-15 kit with it.

I'm looking at a buying two receivers and an A3 flattop kit with detachable carry handle. I'll sit on the other receiver until I decide I need a carbine or I'll sell it.

I went to a local gun show Sunday. I was amazed at the flat top AR15 selling for $795. I think they were S&W.

I've built a fair # of AR's, and the only reason for me doing the build was to get the quality barrel I wanted. I used stainless Lothar Walther barrels with 24" varmint profile and free-float tubes. Those barrels SHOOT. I haven't had a SINGLE one not do less than 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. The first one I build for myself shot a 10 shot group with 9 under .4" and the 10th a called flyer that opened it up to .65".

Usually I get complete RRA's match lowers as they are a good deal with a very decent two stage trigger and order all the other components along with the lower sans barrel.

2 words...Rock River

I've built two, back when I was single and had money and time. Both w/ RRA components. One was in M4 configuration and I think I would have come out better buying an Oly or Bushmaster off the shelf. The other was an A2 HBAR and I built it quite a bit cheaper than the Colt HBAR that I bought a few years earlier. That is taking into account that my time was not money. Both shot very well and I enjoyed building them. I did have to borrow a few tools and get some detailed instruction from a friend who built quite a few. Ended up selling both to the same guy that helped me build them. Looked at building another a while back and came to the conclusion it would be cheaper to buy one off the shelf. Good luck.

I have a RRA varmint version. I have yet to find a reload that wouldn't shoot sub-moa and 3 various surplus group less than 1.5MOA. Looking a parts I don't thing I could have built it for the price.

I hope this is not an off-topic diversion, but is anyone going with a gas piston version rather than the traditonal AR system? What I hear is that so long as you maintain the AR it will run fine, but of course the guys selling the other versions claim better reliability and cleaner, cooler operation.

I think I am inclined to favor the AR for wide parts availability but am still on the fence a bit.

when a buddy of mine wanted an AR, here is what I did, picked up a superior arms lower complete including stock for $180, a DPMS 20" bull varmint complete upper from midway for $440, put the 2 halves together bought a clip and he had HIS smith do a trigger job on it, thats about $650 and maybe some change for a complete rifle with a tuned trigger. go look at the gun shops and see how ridiculous their AR's are priced, most are pushing 1k or more. I tried to talk my buddy into the 16" bull because I could have put the deal together for $100 less. generally the brand of the lower isn't a big deal infact there are only a few companies that make the lowers so its very possible the expensive brand name lower say rock river is made by the same company that makes the less known name brand lower. his gun shoots very well, less than 3/4 MOA

I still don't like AR's though, they seem kindy clanky and ungainly getting them in and out of the truck, I don't trust the safety like I do on say my Ruger mk2 calling rifle, the stocks are way to short for me, IMO the gun was never really made with mounting optics in mind, yeah its done all the time, but the scope eyepiece is too close the charging handle, for me its hard to get the scope mounted high enough for me to get a comfy cheek weld on it, to fix this requires very expensive larue scope mounts, I think I am happy with my bolt guns

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
I hope this is not an off-topic diversion, but is anyone going with a gas piston version rather than the traditonal AR system? What I hear is that so long as you maintain the AR it will run fine, but of course the guys selling the other versions claim better reliability and cleaner, cooler operation.

I think I am inclined to favor the AR for wide parts availability but am still on the fence a bit.

I've been playing with the standard design since 1969 and doubt very seriously that I will be jumping ship anytime soon. If you keep it clean and use quality ammo you won't have any problems. There are a couple of things I do to mine to help insure they will continue to cycle everytime but as a rule, you should be okay with the stock design. Of course if all hell breaks loose you can use the standard AR to fight your way to one with a piston.

quote:

Of course if all hell breaks loose you can use the standard AR to fight your way to one with a piston.

Or, when all hell breaks loose you can pick up extra parts from all the "broken" ones, right?

Maybe I should just get a six-pack of AK-47s?


Thanks for the info. It agrees with the other advice I have received.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Of course if all hell breaks loose you can use the standard AR to fight your way to one with a piston.

Or, when all hell breaks loose you can pick up extra parts from all the "broken" ones, right?

Maybe I should just get a six-pack of AK-47s?


Thanks for the info. It agrees with the other advice I have received.

I try to maintain similar guns as those used by various organizations so in the event of an emergency I will never have to worry about spare parts or ammo.

Well, there ARE times when building is cheaper.

A few years after I retired the third time(which was in 1991), I spent a couple of days a week running a friend's gun shop while he wondered off to places like the Gun Report show, and about 20-30 other such.

One time just after he came back from the Safari Club Show, a guy walked in the shop with a box full of parts he wanted to sell.

He claimed it was a complete set of parts to build two ARs, and he wanted $250 for everything. My friend must have been burnt out on trading, because he didn't even look at the stuff. I did, and found that it looked as if he was probably telling the truth, and that obviously none of the parts had ever been used or assembled.

I didn't have $250 on me at the moment, which was an exception to my usual rule back then. But I did have $200. So I offered him that, and he took it.

I took the parts home and assembled them, ending up with two Bushmasters, consecutively serial numbered. He had lied, though. I had to buy a sear for one of them, because the second one in the box was an auto-sear and I sure as Hell wasn't going to use that!!! It is resting now as one more piece of gravel in the bottom of the river which flows by my house.

But I don''t figure on that kind of deal again in this lifetime.
So, the next time I bought an AR, I bought a fully assembled, brand new in the box, Bushmaster CMP model for $800 at our gun club.

What is a called flier? Is that like a Mulligan? They way I understand it, you shoot a bad group, it is just a bad group.
Butch

Damn butch, you are a real party pooper!
As was stated above, you could (with proper searching for "good deals") build an AR for around $700-800. So, if you can buy exactly what you want off "the shelf" (or through the mail order) for that, then fine. There are certainly a lot of variations available, generally in barrel length and configuration, flattop or regular, grip, and handguard.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
What is a called flier? Is that like a Mulligan? They way I understand it, you shoot a bad group, it is just a bad group.
Butch

Horseshoes & hand grenades. This ain't Benchrest.com



Terry

If you add in the price of the tools and your time to do it, plus your time to learn I don't see how you could be ahead financially doing it yourself. Now I could see myself buying the parts I wanted and sending them to someone like Malm and having one built, but that would only be to get exactly what I wanted, not to save money. For me, I see more value in that than a few $$$ saved.

BTW, I bought a Sabre Defence upper earlier this year. It's the stuff and matches my interest in these rifles to the T.

Terry

Since accuracy is important to me, I had John Holliger build my upper. I also bought a Geissele trigger from him. He built it with my supplied Shilen barrel. It is a legal service rifle with iron sights. It is very accurate when shot with young eyes. I could have gone a cheaper way, but if that were the case, I would just use my M1 Carbine. If I have a large enough capacity magazine I can kill one rabbit.
Butch

For you gents who have youngens who like to shoot building an AR is a great way to be able to explains how they operate and to get them involved in the project. I recently purchased 3 Stag Arm lowers just for that reason as my son wants one. Imange his smile when he tells his friends at the range that he "built it".
Besides, with the elections coming up it is nice to have a couple of spares.

I've just completed putting one together with a Stag lower and a DPMS upper. The lower has a JP Enterprises adjustable trigger (damned nice-- has a very short and smooth trigger pull), one of those gas-assisted recoil buffers and one of those neato two-pad DPMS tactical bolt releases (Brownell's p/n 231-000-027) which makes locking back the bolt nice and easy. The upper is of the A3 type. It has a stainless, 16-inch fluted bull barrel onto which I had a Shrewd muzzle brake machined. The brake was put on (at $200 plus its cost) just to hose off liberals. I am using a vented, full-length float tube. I took a file and worked the gasblock down to where it would fit inside the handguard because DPMS very intelligently put two dimples on the underside of the barrel into which the setscrews go. This positively locks the gasblock into the correct position every time. A very smart idea. Thank you, DPMS. I have not shot the gun for accuracy yet. I have only put five break-in rounds through it, cleaning between each shot. The other five will have to wait until Fall, when I come back from vacation.

"What is a called flier? Is that like a Mulligan?"

Butch, excuse my terminology, but I would think you of all people would understand calling your shots. When I'm evaluating the rifle, I do just that, if I call a shot wide that I know was my trigger control, breathe, or whatever, I don't count that against the rifle. Fact is when I shot that group I had just shot two 5 shot groups under 1/2 inch and that was my first trip to the range with the new toy so I thought to myself 'I wonder what this thing will really do??' So I scrunched my face just so, took my time and and shot a 10 shot group. One of those shots I pulled and saw the hole outside of the 'group'. I knew it would be out before I saw it...I guess that's what I meant by a 'called flier'. It wasn't the rifle, it was me.

Would it have been better for me to state a .65" 10 shot group??? I don't think that statement would honestly convey the accuracy of the rifle.

I'm not Butch, but as this was a thread I have been participating in, I will risk butting in again....



I think either measurement of your 10-shot group under discussion would be correct.

Without a shooting error, the group would be one size, with a shooting error it came out another size.

I suspect the point Butch was trying to make was that a group with a "flier" is a group which has one shot out, the cause of which is not known. (The shot out is the "flier", but individual fliers by definition don't have known, predicted, quantifiable, causes and results.)

The cause of a group with a bad shot is well known...there was a bad shot in it.

There, of course is still one more category, that which includes predictable shots to other than the point of aim, which are caused by all manner of things, such as wind, poorly made bullets, varying powder charges, ad infinitum.

As such, in the example at hand it is probably more correct to say that "I had a 10-shot group Of "X" size, whch included one bad (poorly fired) shot. The nine well-fired shots measured "Y" MOA".

But, of course it is no big deal. We all sometimes use the shorthand you employed. It's not a sin. Butch was just pointing out that many folks fool themselves by calling shots "fliers" which were not. I doubt he was suggesting you were doing that, but he didn't want newbys who are learning about shooting here to start letting themeselves off the hook of the learning curve by calling bad shots (or otherwise explainable ones) "fliers" when they are not.

That way both the rifle and the shooter are credited accurately for their portions of the performance.


The real benefit is the attitude which accurate description builds. When a group has a true flier in it, people just shrug and say "Oh well, S--- happens." If, however they adopt the attitude that pretty much everything out there has an explanation, if one can find it, then they become more analytical and disciplined in their pursuit of shooting excellence. So, they look at their own ability, the capability and construction of their ammo, and the "quality" of their rifle. That can only make them a better performing "shooting system". Shrugging it off as a "flier" only trains us to accept mediocrity.

AC, I think that you covered it well.
Butch

Since I live in Commiefornia we're not allowed to buy AR style rifles so we just build them ourselves out of components. I just buy bare lower receivers, LPKs, buttstocks and complete upper receivers and put them together myself. It's 45 minutes of fun tinkering. If you are going to install your own barrels, etc then it's an hour and a half of tinkering. Not much of a challenge, but it's a fun diversion.

Nice guns for being held prisoner in Kalifonia, Frank. That center one looks just like the ones I can buy in the hardware store in my Free state. Are you saying you cannot buy an AR in KA, but you can build one that would make a liberal mess his shorts? Good thing libs are so stupid about guns, else you could never have that viciously evil bayonet lug or that supremely deadly pistol grip...

And what's with the grip on the one to the right?

quote:

Originally posted by homebrewer:
Nice guns for being held prisoner in Kalifonia, Frank. That center one looks just like the ones I can buy in the hardware store in my Free state. Are you saying you cannot buy an AR in KA, but you can build one that would make a liberal mess his shorts? Good thing libs are so stupid about guns, else you could never have that viciously evil bayonet lug or that supremely deadly pistol grip...

And what's with the grip on the one to the right?

The laws are torturous here, relating to detachable magazines and evil features (evil features are stuff like pistol grips, flash hiders, collapsible stocks, etc).

The gun on the right has a MonsterMan grip which gets rid of the evil pistol grip and with no evil features I can run my old 30 round detachable magazines.