I've been wanting to barrel a rifle action for a while, and the recent American Rifleman article's got me inspired.

But I've got a whole bunch of questions.
1. If you can't turn the reamer in the non-cutting direction, how do you remove it to blow out chips and measure depth? Can you just pull it straight out? Or pull and turn in the cutting direction? How do you do this on a lathe (remove the reamer to measure, lube, and blow out chips)?
2. If you can finish chamber by hand, couldn't you use a tall drill press with a piloted rough chamber reamer on an unchambered barrel blank? If you have piloted reamers, won't you have the same precision?
3. Or, if that wouldn't work, could you chamber the whole thing by hand (though it'd be something like 835 turns for a 3.340 length chamber at .004 in/turn)?
3. What's the advantage of a removable pilot vice a solid pilot on a chamber reamer?
4. In the article, he uses a depth micrometer to determine how much further to ream. Can you measure off the "lip" of the chamber, or would you measure off of the back of the "go" gauge to the barrel shoulder?

Thanks. I appreciate any comments, tips, or advice.

Steve

quote:

I've been wanting to barrel a rifle action for a while, and the recent American Rifleman article's got me inspired.

The guy that wrote that article should be flogged about the head with a bag full of all the broken reamers that the article is going to create.

First of all the barrel must be threaded to match the action and that requires a lathe to attain the precision required. The thread must be extremely precise and the shoulder distance must be controlled to within a couple thou. This can only be done in a precision metal cutting lathe. If one can do this, chambering should be done in the lathe as well. Doing so using a drill press is a recipe for a broken reamer IMO.

I truly believe a man could chamber a barrel using a reamer and a varispeed hand drill.....at some considerable risk I might add but it could be done. But then what?????.....you still need the lathe to do the shoulder and thread.....

Sorry friend....I don't mean to pour cold water over your idea.....just trying to set the idea in some sort of reality.

Vapodog,

I appreciate the reply.

The barrels are pre-threaded. The chamber is left short in the pre-chambered and pre-threaded blank. Then headspace is set by reaming to within spec instead of cutting back the barrel shoulder and threading.

But I think you are saying that this method doesn't account for a primary and secondary torque shoulder surface depth variance. Is that right?

Steve

It sometimes seems as though gun-magazine writers are in a constant state of trying to “reinvent the wheel.â€

Theoretically, one could (with enough time and skill) build an entire rifle with nothing but hand tools...but what’s the point?

Call me old and spooky...but when creating something that has to help contain 50,000 plus PSI sitting about eight inches or so in front of your face I think its a good idea to do it in the most accurate way possible.

quote:

The barrels are pre-threaded. The chamber is left short in the pre-chambered and pre-threaded blank. Then headspace is set by reaming to within spec instead of cutting back the barrel shoulder and threading.

That is a different thing. If the chamber is already 98% done you can and should finish it by hand. Install the barrel. Check headspace, ream if necessary. Leave the barrel in place. Use a 1/2" socket wrench extension, through the receiver, to drive the reamer using a tap handle. Flood it with lube.

I did not read the artical, I would not go anywhere near a reamer with a power drill, wood brace, cresent wrench or any of the other myriad of hair brained schemes. It is a simple job that required commons sense and the proper tools. I would not try to ream a chamber from scratch without a lathe.

You asked about turning the reamer backward. If you do that you will break off the cutting edges. To answer your question yes, just pull it straight out. Ease up on the pressure until it quits cutting then straight out.

But I've got a whole bunch of questions.
1. A: The reamer does not screw into the chamber, it scrapes metal. It will not be stuck in there. It will fall out by gravity it you alow it too.

2. you use a tall drill press.... won't you have the same precision?
A: No it would be a mess, the reamer would get cocked and probaly broken. No!!

3. Or, chamber the whole thing by hand,
A:I have done that once, on a 25-20. It never shot worth a darn. I atribute that to a crooked chamber. Rough chambering is a lathe job, period.

3. What's the advantage of a removable pilot,
A: To allow the use of pilots that fit your barrel exactly.

4. In the article, he uses a depth micrometer to determine how much further to ream. Can you measure off the "lip" of the chamber, or would you measure off of the back of the "go" gauge to the barrel shoulder?

A: You could if you had another barrel to compare to. For the rough reaming part I do ballpark it from the protrusion of the gauge base above the back end of the barrel. If you don't have the old barrel then you have no reference point.

For your replacement barrel you will need to ream about 15 or 20 thousands to get your chamber to full depth. You will ream carefully and slowly until the "Go" gauge will chamber without resistance. You will have to do that by feel. You will have a "Go" and "No Go" gauge. ream a little then try your "go" gauge. You may or may not feel the bolt begining to close. If not ream a little more, a few turns, and try again. When it starts to close, slow down and take smaller cuts. When it just closes without resistance you are done. Check with the "No Go" to be sure you have it right.

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:
Vapodog,

I appreciate the reply.

The barrels are pre-threaded. The chamber is left short in the pre-chambered and pre-threaded blank. Then headspace is set by reaming to within spec instead of cutting back the barrel shoulder and threading.

But I think you are saying that this method doesn't account for a primary and secondary torque shoulder surface depth variance. Is that right?

Steve

Steve

A pre threaded and short chambered barrel can be finished by hand if you have the proper headspace gauge and know what you're doing. I have done a couple myself. Some benchrest shooters chamber with a lathe but leave the final few thou to hand reaming. But trying to ream a chamber completely by hand or by using a drill press is a bad idea.

A piloted reamer is not absolutely necessary but it does allow for more precise alignment of the reamer and a more concentric chamber. For cutting a chamber in, say, your old 30-30, a solid pilot is just fine.

Now, what in the hell does "primary and secondary torque shoulder surface depth variance" mean???

Ray

My advise it to pay a good 'smith a fair price to do the job. We're talking incriment of 1/1000th of an inch to get the headspacng right and that is not nearly as easy as it looks in pictures. The only rifle that a regular guy probably has any business swapping barrels on is a Savage 110 series, since almost any idiot with a headspace gage and a nut wrench can install a barrel with safe headspace on that action.

Jeff

quote:

since almost any idiot with a headspace gage and a nut wrench can install a barrel with safe headspace on that action.

Jeff

Ouch, that sounds painful!

Even having a lathe does not guarnatee a better chamber. You really must know how to use it too. I'd agree that you might ought to think about having someone do it for you, especially if it is a one time event.

If you plan on rebarrelling a lot then maybe it is worth your effort to invest in the proper tools.

In any event, if it is being chambered in a lathe, why on earth would anyone want to introduce the possibility of error by doing that last few thou by hand? This makes no sense to me at all when you can finish the entire job in the lathe. All you need to be able to do is read a depth mic.

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:
Vapodog,

I appreciate the reply.

The barrels are pre-threaded. The chamber is left short in the pre-chambered and pre-threaded blank. Then headspace is set by reaming to within spec instead of cutting back the barrel shoulder and threading.

But I think you are saying that this method doesn't account for a primary and secondary torque shoulder surface depth variance. Is that right?

Steve

I can only assume you're talking about fitting a barrel to a mauser where you wish the step in the barrel to contact the inner ring and outer receiver ring simultaneously. That too can only be accomplished using a lathe and custom cutting the barrel to match. It's a precision cut and is done with a lot of finess and skill in measuring and cutting.

Are you trying to save a few dollars?....good...I'm all for that but this might be a poor place to do it. Do you have a barrel vice?....a headspace gage...can you assemble the barrel when it's done and test fire it to prove it's safety?

IMO these steps are part of any good barreling job. No smith should allow a newly barreled action to leave his shop untested....it's part of what you pay for.

In all seriousness here I really can't find an advantage to not using a lathe for this job.....in the end it's not likely to cost less and it's not likely to be a good job.

SKL1:

First, congrats on deciding to get off your ass and build something rather than just read about it! It is one of the traits that made America great IMHO, and one we have been steadily moving away from since the invention of the TV.

Anyway, of course you can chamber by hand but it is just not as easy or simple as doing it in a lathe. NOTE- I have never done it this way but am thinking about doing so one of these days just to have done it and learn something new myself-

Anyway, since you mentioned a drill press, what I would do is center the barrel below the chuck, put a reamer in the chamber, and put a live center in the drill press chuck. The reamer will have a little dimple in the center and use the drill press quill to apply the downforce. Turn the reamer with a wrench.

Right now Midway has some A&B barrels on sale- $68 for a 260 and $79 for either 308 or 338 so even if you totally screw up you aren't out much money and will have learned something.

No matter how you do it, just remember to have a qualified gunsmith inspect it before you fire it.

Rick,

I would like to have a lathe someday and learn how to use it, but we don't really have room now. I may try to take off some time next year and attend Mark Stratton's class, though. And the point is just that I'd like to go through the learning exercise of barreling a rifle action. Kind of like the work I've done building motors, doing work on my old car, building furniture, making bows and arrows, reloading, etc.

Scot and Cheechako, thanks for the tips. Primary torque shoulder is inside the action ring where the end of the threaded portion mates with the action. secondary torque shoulder is the outside of the action ring where the barrel shoulder contacts, as per Jerry Kuhnhausen's book (pg 162-163, picture on pg 181). If the action's front ring was too long or short, then I suppose there would be less bearing surface with a pre-threaded barrel.

Steve

All,

Thanks for the replies. The idea isn't to save money, it's to learn how to do it.

I'm still interested in whether you can register with a depth mic on the lip of the chamber cut, or whether you have to work backwards off the "height" of the inserted go gauge.

Steve

Mark,

Thanks for the ideas on using the drill press and the heads-up on the barrels.

assuming you have a short chamber, the best way to measure depth is to put the go gage in the bolt face of the action and screw the barrel to the action with the go gage in place. Then use a feeler gage between the receiver ring and the barrel to determine how much more you need to go deeper with the chamber.

Lets say that you are short .005 measuring with the feeler gage...then go deeper with the chamber about .007 assuming the chamber will set back about .002 under tightening the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
SKL1:First, congrats on deciding to get off your ass and build something rather than just read about it! It is one of the traits that made America great IMHO, and one we have been steadily moving away from since the invention of the TV.

Moderator

Right on!

It's sad to watch the emasculation of the American man. I get so tired of reading these posts by girly-men saying, "Oh, don't try that, you might hurt yourself. Pay somebody to do it for you." It looks to me like skl1 has all the skills needed to do a simple chamber finish reaming and I hope he doesn't get scared away by all these horror stories.

Ray

The original post mentioned nothing about just “finishing†a chamber by hand...or if it did I certainly missed it.

I believe that several people (including me) were responding to the advisability of doing a complete chambering job by hand or with a drill press.

I think even you “macho-men†would agree there is a bit of difference in the two.

skl-

You might want to register and post on the Military Firearms Restoration Corner forum: http://mfrc.sizzlyhosting.com/index.php?s=a2ebe293b2828...9e9d86be&showforum=3

Guys there are finish reaming chambers by hand on a daily basis.

You do need to mention that this is a Mauser. (Some won't take this for granted.)

You might also want to consider a Lothar Walther barrel: They're deep chambered.

You're going to have to farm out the lathe work to match the inner and outer torque shoulders on your receiver anyway, and with a deep chamber, all you do is have your lathe guy relieve the barrel's breech face to match the dimension of the bolt in the receiver at the same time.

Good luck,

flaco

N.B. Count me among those who congratulate you for taking the time and effort to learn how to do this yourself.

It's hard to imagine the satisfaction that comes from this--sort of--complex commitment to Your Own rifle.

Rick

Unless I'm wrong your post came after he had clarified that the barrel was pre-threaded and short chambered. Even so, there is an edit function that you could have used once you found out the real story.

Yes, I too advised against him doing the job in a drill press. But at least I didn't throw in a bit about "50,000 psi pressure next to his face" and all that kind of crap.

I'll stick by my comments about girly-men and the de-gonading of the American male.

Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
Rick

Unless I'm wrong your post came after he had clarified that the barrel was pre-threaded and short chambered. Even so, there is an edit function that you could have used once you found out the real story.

Yes, I too advised against him doing the job in a drill press. But at least I didn't throw in a bit about "50,000 psi pressure next to his face" and all that kind of crap.

I'll stick by my comments about girly-men and the de-gonading of the American male.

Ray

Ray,

You are correct in that I could have edited my post...but not correct about it being “written†after he mentioned that they were short chambered barrels. If you will notice they were posted two minutes apart...which means we were probably writing them at pretty much the same time.

I spent quite awhile in the Marine Corps, 30 plus years as a stunt man, have three grown children and six grandchildren...so I’m not all that worried about my “manhood“ being in question over something as silly as how or how not to chamber a rifle barrel.

Rick

I apologize. I never meant to question your manhood. I'm sure you don't feel threatened by my comments.

I spent a while in the United States Navy, 40 plus years working in Alaska, have 7 grown children, 14 grandchildren, and 4 great-grandchildren and all I can say is that the boys and men I grew up with were sure different than the ones I see today. My older brother and I often reminisce about all the stuff we used to do as kids that is considered life-threatening today, especially in Kalifornia.

Enough said about this IMHO. You can have the last word.

Ray

A friend of mine and a very skilled gunsmith started out chambering barrels on a floor model drill press. So it can be done.
Measuring for depth, one can use any surface which is perpendicular to the bore as a reference point. In other words, you can measure from the back of the headspace guage to the shoulder or to the face of the barrel. The final measurement will be obtained by measuring from the front of the receiver to the boltface or from the inner shoulder to the boltface if it is a mauser. The chamber will be reamed about .002 deeper than this to allow for some crush when the barrel is tightened up.
Barrel fitting is not a complex operation but many can make it seem so! Regards, Bill.

Skl, you say that you are doing this for the learning experience, but without the indicating that it takes to set a barrel up in a lathe[ a tenth or two] you are missing out on what it really takes to thread and chamber a barrel properly. Getting the setup right is 99 % of a good barrel job. As far as hand reaming the final few thou. of a short chambered barrel, doing it by very carefully should be perfectly all right. It is a little better to get the head space a bit long then have it too short, any ctg. that you shoot in that particular chamber will be perfect for that one, although it may not chamber in another gun. A fellow B.R. shooter blows out brass about 14 thou. when fireforming brass for it. I most certainly would not recomend doing this, but there is nothing wrong with it either. Try and get your head space as close as possible without being short. Good luck with your efforts. Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
Rick

I apologize. I never meant to question your manhood. I'm sure you don't feel threatened by my comments.

I spent a while in the United States Navy, 40 plus years working in Alaska, have 7 grown children, 14 grandchildren, and 4 great-grandchildren and all I can say is that the boys and men I grew up with were sure different than the ones I see today. My older brother and I often reminisce about all the stuff we used to do as kids that is considered life-threatening today, especially in Kalifornia.

Enough said about this IMHO. You can have the last word.

Ray

No offense taken, Ray!

I totally agree with your observations on todays males...but I think that is just because life is so much easier now than prior to and during WWII. Most, if not all men (and women) that lived through the depression and WWII are allot tougher than I ever want to be!

NEVER NEVER turn a reamer backwards to remove it. You run the risk of wedging a chip between the back side (or clearance angle) of the reamers cutting edge & the chamber wall & screwing the chamber up.

The point of fitting a barrel blank instead of buying a prethreaded one is that snug thread and in the Mauser snug against inner and outer shoulders is to get maximum rigidity.A rigid system is necessary for accuracy.

skl1 ...Congratulations on deciding to do a project rifle on your own.... Building one on your own won't save you too much money...because you will have to get your hands on the proper tools... The link to the sporterizing forum listed above..actually has a co-op that loans tools and shares reamers. Here is a link to another forum that has a sporterizing section..

http://p223.ezboard.com/bcurioandrelicfirearmsforum



Don't be fooled into thinking that you can not build a decent shooting rifle on your own...you can! You just need to do the research and ask the right questions first...and if you can find someone close by that can help you with your first project you will see that it is not difficult...but you do need to pay attention to detail!!

I have built several rifles for myself using mauser actions and barrels that I can afford (that most folks here would consider scrap iron) and they all shoot as good or better than the factory rifles I have
owned. If I could afford what it cost to have a custom rifle built..I would have one...but I don't have that kind of money...and if I had 5 grand laying around I would use it to go hunting!!

You want to try building a rifle...Go for it!! You may just surprise yourself...with what you can do yourself...

Zeeriverrat1