Chic:

Your post indirectly addresses a question I've had for some time, about how to prepare a "pattern stock." I've been thinking about purchasing a semi-inletted stock in a utility grade of wood, glass bedding every mating surface and shaping the exterior to my liking and then shipping it to someone like Dennis Olson.

Although I gather I won't receive a drop in stock, it should be ready for final inletting.... right?

In your experience, who makes the best (I know best is a very subjective word) stock duplicator. Why?

Does anyone know if anyone in Minnesota has a professional quality duplicator?

What does anyone think about a business where one would rent time on a duplicator to those who have pattern stocks and want to duplicate them?

Customstox

Thank you very much once again.

I tried to find out some information on the WWW and did see quite a few of George's Guns for Sale. They look intriguing, but at $29000 a pop they do not look like they are flying out of the door real fast.

Maybe a trip to Boise is in order.

I think you would be best served having a conversation with Customstox about this endevour. About 1 year ago I was pretty hot and heavy about getting a duplicator. He talked me out of it





Dennis Olson out of Plains, MT does all my duplicating work. He does a fine job for $80 too! Of course their are guys out there who do near perfect duplication work with a Hoenig. But when you're poor like me $250 for a duplication job just isn't feasible.



Btw, I thank him everyday for talking me out of a duplicator. He probably saved my marriage!



-Mike

blue,
The best stock duplicator is the Hoenig Rodman made by George Hoenig in Idaho. There is one for sale in the advertising pages of the Gunmaker, the quarterly magazine of the ACGG. They are asking $17,000 and that price is not out of line. The problem with these machines is the shortage of them available. Even when he made them and he is not making them now, he only made 3 a year. The item that sets them apart is a device that George pattented called the radial clamp. One other feature that makes them unique is the fact they they are a 4 axis duplicator. The machine can do a vertical plunge and the others work off of a pivot arm and the front of the machine describes an arc when moving. The dakota does allow you to unlock the fornt end and with skill you can do a plunge. When you are running a duplicator the wood you are cutting vibrates and the length of the piece that is vibrating is the distance between the axis on each end that hold the blank in place and allow it to rotate along the axis. When using the radial clamps, the distance is cut into thirds or even quarters if you have three clamps.

I have used one of these machines and they are very precise and they are the only ones that can give you a 1 to 1 duplication. The rest, Star, Dakota, etc have to allow for the vibration and use undersize cutters (undersize versus the size of the mandrel tracing the pattern stock). With a honeig, it takes you 1 1/2 to 2 hours to inlet the blank after you get it back if you glassed the action into your pattern and you know what you are doing when you make the pattern. The others can take you up to 20 hours to get to the same place and the others can often gouge out spots where they should not, requiring you to do some repairs.

The downside is the Hoenig is a very slow machine. My friend who had one (he passed away) said it took him 5 hours + on most jobs. Another owner I know said it takes him more like 12. They have a small router motor to do the cutting and that is part of the problem with time but also part of success with the accuracy they attain.

Ito costs in from $250 to $350 to have one "turned" on a Hoenig. If I have a $1,000 blank going to be turned it will be on a Hoenig or I will do it from a blank.

I know of no one in Minnesota who has one, but there may be some who have a Dakota which is pretty good. I think if you had one of these services you would have very unhappy customers when they found out that you can not just jump on these machines and get a good product. The learning curve can be a long one.

Customstocks.

Thank you very much for the information.

I am absolutely intrigued by this machine. Is what you are talking about something like a steady rest on a lathe

Is there anywhere on the internet to get a photo of one of these machines.

Could not the size of the router motor be increased?

Anybody know anything more?

Here, Im going to pull a Swamp now. Get ready!

http://www.terrco.com/gun.htm

And by the way Terrco is out of Watertown, SD their machines are about $8500. I had looked into them at one point.

Alvinmack

Thanks for your help. I appreciate it. I have also looked into the South Dakota Machine but have been told esstentially what Customstox is saying about vibration.
(would you believe I once bought one of those little tiny router duplicators. Boy did it make a mess of things)

Anyway, I think I want to invest in this Hoenig deal. Anybody want to go into business with me?

Customstocks

by the way, who was Rodman? And why isn't George making these machines anymore?

blue, I don't know who Rodman was or is. I have thought of that but never asked George. You would have to ask George why he isnt making them anymore. The last time I saw him at SCI he said he is thinking of making them again. That does not bode well for anything actually.



Regarding the router motor, I suspect that a bigger motor with more torque will just be more aggressive and tend to overcut at times. I am sure he has investigated this, he is probably the most brilliant person I have ever met. Genius does not describe some of the thngs he does such as his cylindrical action double rifle.



The one thing that becomes real clear after using these machines for a short while is how incredibly mindless the work is. Boring does not come close to describe he feeling. On the other hand you have to watch for grain flow and cutter direction to make sure the machine does not create a chip as it cuts.



I will try to get some photos of a complete set up machine.

If Grandview says that D. Olson can give you that good a job, you can take it to the bank. I just have had bad experiences with everything but the Hoenig. But if someone is looking for a good duplication at a bargain price, on GV's say so, I would send them to Dennis. I have a lot of faith in his opinion and experience. I am going to try him the next time I have one of my own to do.

Belaw,
You pretty much have the routine outlined. The router bits can not make a square corne and that is why you can not do a drop in. You have to square the corners with chisels. There are some other features that can not be esactly duplicated but they can come close.

I have about 50 patterns, 30 rifles and 20 shotguns. You can build them to suit a particular rifle or you can build one a universal oversize to accomodate changes you want to make. Any of he patterns can be sacrificial lambs and changed back as you wish. Bondo and acraglass is a wonderful thing.

Blue

You might look this guy up. Castlewood is just south of Watertown SD

http://cliffsgunstocks.com/index.html

Roger

Roger
I am not looking to get work done. Rather, I want to do the work and am looking for the vehicle!!!!!

Have a look at CNC routers. It sounds like you may be in the same ballpark pricewise. Of course it helps if you are not computer shy and don't forget the tool path software - VERY important for 3D work.

Glen

can you recommend one to have a look at?

We have a Larken. I looked long and hard as it is easy to spend a pile of money on these things. The Larken seemed to be very good value. We work it hard and except for cleaning the linear bearing every six months it has never broken. They are also in the other end of town so I could look at them and talk to them.
www.larkencnc.com

Does the Larkin have the ability to integrate 4th axis?? Without that, stock duplicating would be pretty difficult. I looked on their site, but didn't see what I was looking for. It definitely has possibilities if it does.

Ohh well, if not, I've still got my Haas

Pray tell, what is a HAAS, and how does it compare to a Hoenig.

It's a 4axis CNC Milling Machine. That's what we use to manufacture all of our gun parts on. Here's a link to our shop page showing a couple of them.

Haas machines

There in the upper left corner.

Triggerguard

Great Looking Shop. I have a feeling that each of those machines are somewhere in the neighborhood of $50,000 or more which would put them way out of my price range for a duplicating machine.

How about manufacturing a nice small ring mauser, say exactly like the g.33/40 in two lengths (standard and shorter) and make them good but make them so a guy could buy one for $400 or less. Those machines could do that couldn't they?

Yes, I am fairly sure they can do 4 axis. Looks like you should have the software you need. We cut mainly fiberglass, aluminum and renshape materials on ours. Very little wood, after all you don't make stocks from wood, do you?

Most of the work of a "true Mauser" could be produced on those machines, but not all, and for prices that low, the volume would have to be extremely high. When I say extremely high, I mean in the neighborhood of 50,000 units or more per year. I doubt I'd be able to drum up that much business on those, but one could dream ehh?
In the world of CNC machines, volume is everything. You can make a part extremely efficient on them if you're tooled up for the numbers, or you can save money on fixtures by planning on running small quantities. But, no matter how you look at it, there is a limit as to how inexpensive you can make a part. You have material to consider, which is cheaper in volume, and you have machine time that can be increased, or decreased depending on the quality of tools that you use. Of course, when you spend more money on higher quality tools, they tend to produce higher quality, and faster parts.
The bottom line always comes back to running volume.

We've made somewhere around 250,000 trigger guards since we began in 1992, and we are still perfecting our processes to improve quality, and reduce costs. It is a learning process that never ends.

Our machines as they sit, are around $75,000.00 a piece. Of course, that's before you start talking about the fixturing that is involved in making the individual parts, that depending on the part, can run more than the cost of the machine.
The old saying about "it takes money to make money", is never more true than it is in a CNC machine shop.

Matt,
So when will we get to generate some volume for you buying your actions?? I, for one, can't wait.

Huntr

As it stands right now, probably the 3rd to 4th quarter of this year. Unfortunately, our receiver project has been being put on hold due to an overwhelming amount of work for USRAC, but things should smooth out for us this summer. Once that happens, all effort is going to be devoted to getting our actions on line. Once the initial action is produced, the rest will follow very quickly. Since we have 6 different actions, with multiple options available, this will prove to be quite a task, but fortunately, the problems that most action builders have had in designing new receivers we have all but overcome with our manufacturing techniques.
AR will be the first place that the new actions will be unveiled, and we already have several top gunsmiths that will be providing feedback, one of which will be John Ricks.

Triggerguard

I must have missed something somewhere. You are going to make an action, but its not going to be a mauser action??? If not, what is it going to be, and how will it be different from a mauser. what will the price structure be like.

I don't envy you. back in the old days I used to get involved in some cost/profit analysis. that was back before lotus 123 even. drawing all of those graphs and stuff. what a nightmare.

Chic,

Would it be possible for you to reduce the size of your photo please?

I have no problems with it myself, as I am using a 1600x1200 display, but apparently a few members who are uising lower resolution have to scroll right and and left to see the posts on that thread.

We are clearing one of our garages to put our duplicating machine in.

It is Walter's job, so it might take a year or two

Saeed, not a problem I will change them. I have the same problem that I created.

I was going to send you a message and ask about the duplicator. If it is assembled you might take a photo of it and post it. It is truly a unique machine and one has to see it to understand how unique it really is. BTW, kick Walter in the butt and get him moving. I am anxious to see some results.

Chic my friend,

"...I am anxious to see some results..."

Surely you don't mean that!

Any results at the end of what Walter does is not fit for anything.

He asked me to show him how to glass bed a rifle. He watched me do several guns, and decided to try one himself.

I would not let him do it in my workshop, so he had to take it to his own. He would not say a word to us for a week, and then appeared at my place with a priceless look on his face, and the rifle in his hands.

As soon as I saw him, I burst out laughing, because I knew what he did. He forgot to take the release agent! And when he said he bedded teh rifle, I kept quiet.

The man whose rilfe this was, was fothing at the mouth, trying his best to break Walter's neck!

Saeed,
My gosh you are going to turn Walter loose on that fine machine? Heaven help us and the Hoenig. On the other hand it does have a rapidly moving part that can whittle his digits into stubs, he will likely be careful or hopefully so.

I have never permanently bedded a rifle in glass but there were times that I thought I did. I do have a tool that I built that will help him get it out. I will find it, photograph it and post on here. Basically it is a piece of pipe 2" inside diameter pipe that has had a section removed along the length of the pipe that is 1 3/8" wide. The edges of that cut are ground so that they are flat. Those surfaces will go along the top of the stock along the action. At the top of the pipe and centered is a hole that is drilled and a 1/4 inch bolt goes through there. On the other end of the bolt is a 5/8" brass rod that is threaded for the bolt. You put the pipe over the action, slide the rod into the action from the rear and thread the bolt into it. Then as you tighten up the bolt, the cylinder presses against the top of the action and the pipe provides pressure all along the flat adjacent to the action. If you freeze the actiion it will pop right out. Mine have done so without the freezing routine. If this is still confusing I will post a photo.

Good luck with the duplicator and more so with your friend Walter.