Mausers customs have slow lock time, wooden stocks that warp, skinny barrels that heat up fast, sloppy bolts, low power scopes.....in order to shoot good groups you need a Nesika Bay, McMillan, #5 profile minimum and a 6-24power scope right?

The last of my 4 slow wooden skinny sloppy low glass 09 Argentine customs returned from Bisley yesterday having acheived half inch for 3 shots at 100. Thusly the 9.3x62 went 0.4" to join the 6mm rem, 6.5x55 and 7x57.

The 6.5x55 has now shot 2 groups of 0.3moa. Yesterday in front of Deerdogs it shot 0.8" (actualy slightly less)edge to edge at 200yards with 3 shots not allowing barrel to cool. Centre to centre I make that .27moa.

Let's hear it for walnut, shihlen, Swarovski 6power and Mauser!

HERE HERE!! I'll cheer for it.

Red

Thank Shilen and who ever chambered it. That's where 80% or more of it is at. Nice to see the old dogs still cutting the mustard though. I'm sure Paul would be pleased.

1894 what's the barrel maker for this rifles ?

Daniel

I hope your mauser continues to shoot that way.

I DO NOT wish to rain on your parade, but I do offer this caution. One 3-shot group means absolutely nothing by way of predicting either "true" accuracy or expectable future accuracy.

It could well be a statisitical freak...that is, it could be the closest a rifle will ever land 3-consecutive shots together (or for that matter, it could be the farthest apart it will ever land them). Odds are it is close to the former.

To truly know, you'll need a LOT of 3-shot groups, using the same load.

The only reason I post this is to warn you, don't blame yourself for poor shooting if your rifle seldom does that again. More likely, it was statistical serendipity.

Best of luck,

AC

[ 06-07-2003, 03:47: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

AC, other than if the stock would warp, why would the rife lose its ability to shoot well once it has proven it can?

AC, reminds me of the time I whacked a crow on the wing with a 22LR handgun. My buddy just about shit. Don't know if it'll ever happen again, but it sure was cool.

Anyone who opines that a woodstocked sporter with a 6x scope won't shoot doesn't know their ass from a hot rock. I've three or four them that shoot very well. I sure hope you do disregard such opinions with great authority.

No one has said that wooden stocked mausers won't shoot well. I have a couple myself which shoot relatively well. And they are a joy to shoot most of the time.

What was said is what was indicated later. The average for the rifle with the good groups has been more like .5". or almost double the .27 group.

All rifles shoot groups. And all groups are to some extent statistically random, within a range.

Look at it this way. Take 100 beans in your hand and toss them on a table. Measure the size of the group formed by the three beans which are closest together. Then measure the group formed by the three beans that are farthest apart. Then measure any other number of groups of three beans. The smallest group and the largest group don't really represent anything like what you can expect from the average group.

The same is true with groups of shots from all rifles. True, some top benchrest rifles may have a smallest group of .060", and a largest group of .219",but they are NOT .060" guns. They are guns that are really capable of groups anywhere between .060" and .219". Almost all of their groups will be not too near .060". If you graphed the groups, you'd likely find that both .060" and .219" were seldom seen...they'd be the extremes of a bell-shaped curve. Most likely, the bulk of groups would be closer to somewhere in the middle, say about .130" or .140"

The same is true with rifles of less capability.
Let's say the best a rifle has done so far is .250" and worst is 1.00". It is statistically likely that the average groups will be somewhere in between, likely about .620" or so.

So, is it a .250" rifle? No. What you can count on is that once in a great while it will shoot .250" and once in a great while it will shoot 1.00". But, it is really about a .500"-.700" rifle most of the time.

And I wish (as much as all the rest who save their tiny groups) that it wasn't so. But, it is.
Anyone who doesn't believe that may possibly kid himself, but he can't kid many others who have very much shooting experience. As was said in a later post, anyone who says different doesn't "know their ass from a hot rock".

My post was intended to note that on occasions when a rifle doesn't shoot as well as we have seen it do before, it doesn't mean we are lousy shooters or that the rifle is no good. A person may have just had one of those days when we see the big groups that randomly come along some times...but are statistically expectable because NO rifle regularly shoots as good as its best groups. Luckily it doesn't consistently shoot as poorly as its worst groups either.

Nor should we believe it is a super rifle, so we must be the part of the shooting system at fault. We were just lucky enough to see one or more of it's super groups. It's true average capability will lie somewhere else. We should enjoy those super groups, but not come to believe that if we don't get them every time that WE have failed. We haven't. It's just the way rifles, and groups, are.

AC

Life Master, High Power,
US National Champion 1997 CBA benchrest

[ 06-08-2003, 09:26: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

I followed this subject in Precision Shooting and Handloader for more years than I care to remember. As I remember 7 shots was the statistical "best". I use three in hunting rifles and count on the first out of a cold, fouled barrel as what it will do when I need it.

I love my 6.5x55 Swedes.

My CZ is my hunting rifle because it is scoped. I leave my military Swedes original. It may never be benchrest quality, but it will sure drop a deer.

Oh, and one more comment...

A 0.520" average is very, very good from ANY sporter rifle. But, it doesn't surprise me from a truly good Mauser. Eddie Mech, a gunsmith of Calgary, Alberta, Canada, used to win quite a bit of money taking military issue 7 m/m Mausers to the annual "silver dollar" money matches held at the CFB Sarcee Ranges in Calgary.

Good worksmanship makes up for a lot of "high tech tweeks" which may not be as well performed. In other words, a good Mauser can be expected to shoot with or better than a less carefully built modern rifle.

As I said before, I hope it continues to shoot well for you. Enjoy it while our lovely paternalistic governments allow us to have them.

Best wishes, AC

I have a M98 Mauser barreled action by Santa Barbara, glass bedded in a B&C stock. It's a .270 win, it's average 3 shot group is under .5". I paid a whopping $119 for the action, and $89 for the stock. It has a Leupold VX-II 3x9 scope in Redfield mounts.

Albert's comment on the 7mm Mauser reminded me of a friend. In late 1988 we were shooting at 200yds on a Sunday afternoon when he brought out his Venezuelan 98. He stepped up and from the bench put 3 shots into a group the size of a quarter-then walked away. I saw him do simialar things at other times with other rifles but this cemented my admiration for the military mauser. He used to shoot steel plates at 200yds with a cast bullet shootin Win 94. Those things would ring all afternoon. He's gone now -with all his knowledge.

1894

Great news, but when you are telling us about your loved rifles, why not tease us with some pictures

/ JOHAN

Yeah, show us some pictures.

I'll try!

Shooting groups from a rest is not much of a challange for a slow locktime!

In competition postition rifle shooting I have never seen a Mauser used to date in the USA. We did use Springfields long ago and they are a Mauser variant of sorts.

When I shoot a rifle I can tell when the trigger releases and Mausers give me the creaps. I try to have the sights moving towards the center of the target and it's very difficult with a slow locktime. The Mannlicher Shoenauer's seem to hit harder than a Mauser. I don't know if that's a good thing. Thus I would rate the MS even lower than a Mauser for precision shooting.

I am glad that you are happy however.

1894:

When my offhand shooting skill exceeds the capabilities of my 98 Mausers and '03 Springfields I'm gonna sell them all and buy plastic stocked Remington 700's because I'll get that magic "fast lock time".

Until then my crappy Hart barrelled Springfield .308 and Shilen barreled 6.5-284 (that both shoot in the low 3's at 300 yards) will have to handicap me. Now i know why I've never won the Nationals - that damn 3 millisecond difference in lock time !!!

It also seems to me that a rifle designed specifically to kill men at considerable distances in the most adverse and trying environmental conditions would make a fair ta' middlin' hunting rifle.

Enjoy your machined steel, hand-rubbed walnut with handcut checkering that was made at a time when quality meant something. You'll never get the plastic stock boys to understand.

Rick

Shooting groups from a rest is not much of a challange for a slow locktime!

...bearing in mind that most are shot in semi field conditions over a rucksac.

When I shoot a rifle I can tell when the trigger releases and Mausers give me the creaps. I try to have the sights moving towards the center of the target and it's very difficult with a slow locktime.

That's not lock time, that's trigger feel ie creep etc

The Mannlicher Shoenauer's seem to hit harder than a Mauser. I don't know if that's a good thing. Thus I would rate the MS even lower than a Mauser for precision shooting.

If you don't know why do you rate the MS?

I am glad that you are happy however.

Thanks. May I ask what you compete with?

Locktime is important when your shooting from offhand. The faster you can get it over with and out the barrel the less chance of some variation.

I only mentioned the MS as they "seem" to have a very slow and heavy striker fall. The ones that I have shot and owned seem to shake the rifle they hit so hard. Of course in a military situation or even some other tough situation such a gun may indeed be more reliable.

I shoot the Remington 40X in slow fire position competition. I have also used the Win M 52 B's and C. The Remington is pretty quick.

As you say from a rest your rifle is just fine and congratulations on how well it does shoot.

Some people seem to think that a speed lock makes a lot of difference in rifle accuracy performance. NOT SO!! In actuality, the ignition reliability you sacrifice when going to a speed lock is not worth the tradeoff, at least in anything except a benchrest rig...

The Mannlicher action does have a slow, heavy striker fall!! I've never missed anything I pointed one at!!

[ 06-15-2003, 19:03: Message edited by: eldeguello ]