All right everyone, I bought and picked up last week a previously owned m70 in 375H&H. the gun has never been shot and except for a couple of marks looks new. One thing I didn't notice initially, and would have offered the guy less money had I seen, is that he royally f*^#%d up the barrel band.

He took an uncle mike's sling swivel and when it was too tight to fit in the eye in the barrel band rather than get a different sling swivel or enlarge the eye it looks like he took a pair of pliers and jammed it in there. Not only did he mar the shit out of the barrel band but now the sling swivel is permanently jammed in there. I tried tapping it out with a small punch but was afraid to move the barrel band on the barrel. Now I have talked to winchester and find out that if the barrel band on those needs to be replaced the whole barrel has to be replaced!!!!

So, recommendations on what to do? Drill it out with a press? Should I bother to call the guy up, let him know that he is an idiot? I know it doesn't do any good normally, since most stupid people realize at some level they are stupid, but it might make me feel better to tell him.

How sturdy is the Sweat on attachment that winchester uses to put that thing in place? I am going to go home and check tonight but I am really worried that it is off center now. What a stupid f*&#ck that guy is.

thanks for the recommendations.

Red

Red,
filing will be the only way to reshape...

to get rid of the stud, you can try
1: remove as much as possible be disassembly of the unka mike's

2: take a 2x4, and from the 4" side, drill a 3/8 or 1/2" inch hole all the way through..

3: lay band over hole... especially stud throughole over the hole in the wood.

4: tap the old stud out...

5: if it slips it's pretty easy to replace, but you are not going to be wailign on it.. you are going to give it SHARP taps.

best of luck
jeffe

thanks jeffe, do you know what the finish is on that rifle? if I did decide to file it then how could I get it refinished to match? I figured that if I could just get the jammed sling swivel out of it then I would leave it marred up. as much as I would like it to be perfect it is a factory gun and is going to be a working rifle (hopefully, if I can find something big to shoot :-)

thanks again,

Red

until you wear the blue off of it....

you can do a cold blue on it.. YUCK!!!...

take a torch, get it very warm, put the cold blue on it... get it hot again, pack it over with gungrease...

won't look good, but it will cover

jeffe

Before you begin the surgery, put on some penetrating oil for a couple of days. Keep it nice and wet with the oil, both sides. Let the oil help you.

Dago Red,

A. I would call the guy and ask for an explanation of why the damage was not disclosed to you prior to purchase. You might be able to negotiate a refund.

B. Fire the gun at the range to establish accuracy. If not too accurate you may want to rebarrel. Since it is new, it should be fine though.

C.After removing his handiwork, you could indeed reshape the band stud by filing/polish and finish w/cold blue. Unless this was a custom gun, it was probably hot caustic blued. I have successfully re-blued small areas using rust blueing or a method I have developed to spot caustic blue. This method duplicates the original finish and is equally durable. If you are interested in directions as to how to do this I will post.

You could actually punch out the old swivel, file (or stone) out the buggering and then spot 'belgium blue' which will match pretty well depending on your polishing grit...

You protect the area around the swivel with shellac (let it dry of course) and paint the raw degreased steel using a small paint brush with the belgium blue and dunk it in boiling distilled water for 10 minutes then card repeat...

I did similar surgery on a battered integral front sight ramp on a M 70 and you'd have to look damn hard to be able to tell.

I will work on it tonight and post some pictures so you all can see how bad it is chewed up and tell me if you would bother or just shoot it. the barrel is a matte blue, so I would want it to match that as close as possible, I am not sure what caustic or cold blue look like. I am sure something in my safe is probalby done with one of those though. Hmmmmm.....

red

The Uncle Mikes swivels are made from mild steel. The swivel band is also made from mild steel. The odds of having the pin in the swivel galling in the hole is very high.

Use oil to help prevent any galling. If you can not drive the swivel from the band then I would simply set the barreled action up in a mill and drill out the stuck pin. Use an undersize drill first and follow with a correct size.

Depending on how Winchester fastened the band it is normally hard to spin the swivel on the barrel.

Once you have the stuck swivel removed then you can touch up the damage.

Jim Wisner

The idea of replacing a barrel for a barrel band is ludicrous. I can't believe Winchester told you that (actually I can, but...).

Once you get it out, you can match the bluing with some Herter's Belgium Blue from Brownell's. You don't have to submerge it in a boiling water bath, just hold the area you are rebluing in the steam jet from a boiling tea pot. I might take a few minutes longer, but it will work. I've found mild steel blues quite well with Belgium blue -- really hard steel sometimes less so.

At worst, if you damage the band, you can always cut through it carefully, heat it to melt the solder, and slide it down the barrel until you can pry it open enough to slip off. Then buy a talley, cut an arc out of the top wide enough to allow it to slip past your front sight base, and epoxy in place where the other one was. At worst, you will be bluing the replacement band, and polishing with emery cloth / rebluing the part of the barrel that is no longer covered by the band.

Good luck,
Todd

I don't get it, am I missing something? If the barrel band is integral with the barrel I can understand the "replace the whole barrel" line. If it's sweated on, get out the torch and sweat it off. You'll have to remove the front site (if it has one). You can always reblue the barrel and receiver "as is" for around 40 or 50 bucks. I'm sure it's a nice rifle, but I don't think it's a collectors item, is it?

Not a collector's item by any means! I just want to get it to a place that is satisfactory to me for minimum amount of money. I can handle some cosmetic problems, but the fact that there is something on the rifle that is "jammed" stuck or whatever bothers me, even if it isn't part of the functioning mechanism.

I am up too late and didn't get into the shop to play, will have to tackle it tomorrow and report back. I don't have a mill so if need to drill out will have to find a way to support the weight of the action while clamping it into the vice under my press. I hope some oil and a few taps will take care of it.

Red

All right, some bad news and some really frickin bad news.

1. there is no room for oil to penetrate, it is jammed in there that badly. I tried drilling out with undersized bit, broke 3 tips (old bits I think). but am not on center of the pin so even if I had a perfectly sized bit I would be taking a chance on reaming the eye out of the band, however.....

2. the band is loose. I can't turn it with my hand it doesn't seem, but it definitely moves when I try rapping on it with the small ballpeen hammer and the punch. To make sure it wasn't my paranoid immagination I used a pencil to make indexing marks and sure enough it is moving.

winchester said they sweat these things on. Does that even seem like the right way to do it? seems a little half ass to me. make it integral of solder/weld it on I would think. I am calling them again tomorrow, despite having to talk to 4 different people today, maybe tomorrow I will get lucky.

anybody have experience with Winchester support and know how long it takes to get them to send things back?

I am also calling the guy tomorrow. don't expect to get anything $$$$ out of him, don't even know what to ask him for along those lines. the rifle I paid for 600, I think it is going to take me more than that to make it "right". Mostly I want to ask him what in the hell inspired him to use a pair of pliers to install the sling swivel and tell him how badly I just want to physically beat the shit out of him.

I will try to take a picture in the morning and post for you guys.

thanks for the help.

Red

Dago Red,

Despair not. There is light at the end of this tunnel. I definitely would call the guy and either ask for some money back or a total refund and give him back the rifle.

"Sweating" on barrel bands is a time tested method of attachment. The beauty is that the band can be re-attached easily by re-heating the joint(provided it has not been contaminated w/dirt or grease/oil). Any competent gunsmith should be able to do that for a reasonable fee.

The damage is a different story and cost will depend on how deep the gouges are, who is doing the work and what level of repair you are willing to accept. If they are not too deep they could be filed down and re-blued as previously suggested. If they are real deep it might require TIG welding in the gouges, re-contouring and re-blueing. I can't imagine even this would approach the cost of re-barreling.

You may want to get an estimate on the repair before you call the guy and simply state to him that you would like him either to pay for the repair or refund your money and take back the rifle. If that fails you always have small claims court.

Good luck!

Bobster

Well, I am waiting to hear from Winchester, I want to ask if they can resweat it. the local shop needs to look at it to see what it will cost. they usually silver solder theirs but siad that it could need to be reblued if that happens. Here are pics of it.

I really wish I hadn't even tried tapping it. If the band were firmly in place and I didn't have to worry about it rotating while I carry it I would put up with the cosmetic damage no problem. But I never thought sweating it would have been how they did it, I thought they were always soldered on.

Dago Red,
Sweating is soldering in the noamanclature being used on this thread...I think from listening to you that you should give the gun to a smith and have him drill it out and hone the part and barrel scratches and re blue it...From what I see it's an easy job and won't be expensive....

Dago Red,
The barrel band that you have is heat shrunk on. There is no braze or solder used to install your band style. It is fairly easy to replace. You just heat it up a little and hit it forward with a plastic hammer or piece of wood. To install a new one, heat it up and press it on. Alignment is important. The band may not end up in the same place on the barrel and the barrel will need to be reblued.
Good luck,
Headache

Did you buy over the internet sight unseen or did you meet the seller to do the deal??

Sweat on or shrink fit, the fix is rather simple for a good gunsmith. As far as that goes, a sharp apprentice or a talented novice could accomplish the repair if care is taken. Good luck.

I met him and bought it. I checked the gun out, but it had the sling on it and I didn't notice this until I went to take it off (I neverleave the slings on except the military type ones when in the safe, they get caught etc.). I should have noticed really, just didn't think to look at that. so I don't expect money back from him, I just want the satisfaction of letting him know he is an idiot and shouldn't reproduce. :-)

I will try to get it to the local shop tomorrow to see if they think they can take care of it. (I think that they let their gunsmith go, and one of the two owners is doing the smith work now. not bad considering the owners used to be highly regarded smiths around here).

Thanks for all the input guys, I will update you as soon as I take it over and see what they can do. It definitely was not soldered on right, becausee when done properly it NEVER should move.

Red

What a buggered-up job that is! First photo looks like the guy staked the swivel in by peening in the band stud. It does indeed look like he took pliers to it also. You have to ask yourself why someone would do that to a brand new gun?

Then again, a friend of mine ordered a custom Model 70(rust blued) from a noted gunmaker and I'll be damned the first thing he did was to take
a Craftsman mechanics screwdriver to the trigger guard screws. Not only did he tear up the screw heads but he also scatched up the bottom metal. It would make a grown man cry. I do believe alcohol had a part to play in that though. Perhaps it did in Dago Red's case too.

Hey! In case anybody thinks some of that damage was me you are mistaken. it is probably my fault that the band is loose, due to me tapping on it. but what you see in the first picture, where the eye of the band is messed up, that is not from me drilling it, you can see the size of the drill from the second picture, I was very careful not to hit the eye on either side when drilling. I didn't even know it was chewed up that bad until I took that picture through my magnifying lamp in the shop (couldn't zoom close enough clearly with the camera).

alcohol has played a part in some stupid things I have done though. :-)

Red

I assumed the marks on the band were the result of a drill breaking and/or jumping out of the hole, it appeared that way, like perhaps you used a hand drill, if thats not the case then I apoligise...

Dago Red,

Didn't mean you buddy, meant the guy you bought the gun from. Perhaps it was unfair of me to suggest the gentleman had been drinking. Some folks just don't know the difference between a precision machine and sink drain.

Nobody offended me! :-) I hope in fact that the guy was drinking, hate to think people do things like that when sober.

Ray, you are right, I did in fact use a hand drill. However, I was incredibly careful and it didn't jump once. I made small punch marks to keep the bit centered and started out slow. sharp bits and soft metal made it easy to cut through. It is possible that I made a couple of the small marks though when my punch slipped a couple of times when I was trying to coax it out. :-(

Red

Making sure I got the story straight:
1. You bought a used gun in person.
2. It had visible damage you didn't notice at the time of purchase.
3. You are upset with visible damage.
3. You believe the seller is an idiot.

I agree with Ray, take it to a smith, get it fixed, go on with life.


[ 11-06-2003, 08:41: Message edited by: Duckear ]

Duckear,

1. I bought the gun in person and did not notice visable damage

2. the person IS AN IDIOT, anybody that forces a sling swivel into the eye of a barrel band with pliers is an idiot, or blind and drunk

3. I dropped it off yesterday and the smith thinks that after getting the remaining piece of metal out of there he can straighten the band on the barrel, and then since it is tight enough that it won't move by hand force he is going to try putting some kind of loctite product he was talking about under it that should help out too. It probably won't move when carried.

He gave me the option of taking the band off, polishing it out, rebluing, re-attaching. I said screw it, I want a functional rifle, not too worried about the cosmetics if it is reliable. They are backlogged so he said I should get it back within 30 days.

I'll update everybody when I get it back and shoot it!

Red

Ya know, if all you care about is slinging it put a sling swivel stud in the forearm and be done with it!

I think it would look funny with two attachment points. :-) I hadn't even though of that solution though.

I appreciate everybody's advice. I'll see how it turns out and let you know. Not sure what the local smiths are capable of anymore so my fingers are crossed.

Red