Hello guys,

I'm just curious as to how many gunsmiths/gunshops have insurance to cover damage/loss. Please only answer the poll if you are the smith, work for the shop or are answering on behalf of a friend (i.e. I asked the small shop where I do business locally and he does carry insurance so I'll put that in on his behalf)

For discussion I'm curious how many of you expect the shop you have work on your gun to have insurance and whether you would do business with somebody if they didn't.

Thanks.

Red

Question:
Do you have insurance for your gunsmithing business?

Choices:
Yes
No

 

I would never go without it. I have had 2 high dollar claims in the last 4 years, one damaged when customs officials did a poor job of re-packing guns after they inspected them and one that was stolen. The 2 claims were nearly 20K combined. Not worth the risk if you ask me.

I have several different kinds of insurance.

Property insurance, covers my shop and tooling in case of fire, tornado, etc.. I also have a separate rider that cover inventory loss.

Then I have a working liability policy that covers me in case of injury/death to a customers due to malfunction of a firearm I built or worked on.

Then I have a business/property policy that covers things that might happen while a customer is on my property(trips, falls, etc.).

Then there are the personal policies I carry on myself(Medical, Disability and life).

All of these expenses get passed on to my customers in the form of labor rates. Just like any other business these types of expenses are all part of owning a business.

This really isn't relevant to the question you asked BUT insurance is only a part of the equation. In the culture we currently live in where lawsuits are the answer to a stubbed toe, a smart business owner finds legal ways to separate his personal assets from the company assets putting many layers of legal walls between them. That way if/when something happens and the company gets sued(usually for a customers stupidity) their personal assets don't end up forfeited along with the business.

Hope that answers your question.

Colin

Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to post that, it's interesting to see not only the answer but the reasoning behind your choices. I agree the world is too litigious. Maybe that's caused some to just decide they won't bother trying at all. I sat around w a couple attorneys that are in my cigar club, it's amazing the money they get for some s$@t. They don't like my idea of making attorneys and plaintiffs cover all court and defense costs if they lose.

I think that even without the concern there should be some due diligince in regards to protecting a customers property. I find it amazing though that not only do people generally expect less from gunsmiths, when it comes to business practices, but often excuse or accept it. I've been burned twice, if everybody learned there lesson there's be hardly and customers left

quote:

Originally posted:
I sat around w a couple attorneys that are in my cigar club, it's amazing the money they get for some s$@t. They don't like my idea of making attorneys and plaintiffs cover all court and defense costs if they lose.

I think that even without the concern there should be some due diligince in regards to protecting a customers property.

Unless the laws have changed since I owned my shop in California, in any circumstance where the law suit is a frivolous one (basically without merit and/or seeking a settlement rather than just a judgment) the courts can and do hold the plaintiff's attorney personally responsible for the defendant's costs.

(Naturally, the defendant's attorney has to request such a ruling if it is not such a flagrant case as to piss the judge off because of the waste of the court's time.

Apparently the judges have become desensitized over the years. Where I live there is another coffee lawsuit against mcdonalds. Listening to the guys talk the other day about how apparently the attorney has an expert that is going to testify that they keep their coffee hotter to maintain it longer. I think it's silly because I know people (my mom) that pour a fresh cup off a hot pot and then microwave it, some just like it really really hot.

Not to get off topic of my own post

Red

People that make fun of the "coffee lawsuit"
against McDonalds never mention that the lady
had to have reconstructive surgery (as in ouch).

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
People that make fun of the "coffee lawsuit"
against McDonalds never mention that the lady
had to have reconstructive surgery (as in ouch).

Yes but the injury caused totally by her own stupidity.
McDonalds certainly didn't place a hot cup of coffee sans lid in her crouch area of the car seat and tell her to drive away.

There are standard temperatures for the coffee served in restaurants. OSHA and the health department put them in place to protect stupid people. When McDonald's served coffee that was well over that limit the injuries are their liability. If the coffee had been within limits there would not be a case.

McDonalds most certainly sold her a cup of coffee that would cause severe skin burns.
Can you defend that? Selling any food product sold so hot it would cause disfiguring burns?

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
People that make fun of the "coffee lawsuit"
against McDonalds never mention that the lady
had to have reconstructive surgery (as in ouch).

Yes but the injury caused totally by her own stupidity.
McDonalds certainly didn't place a hot cup of coffee sans lid in her crouch area of the car seat and tell her to drive away.

As is typical of forums this thread has been completely derailed to useless off-topic crap.

Dago Red, I hope you got the answers you were seeking before it turned into a Mc'Donalds' Coffee discussion.

Colin

quote:

Originally posted by CowboyCS:
As is typical of forums this thread has been completely derailed to useless off-topic crap.
Colin

Indeed, Colin, thanks for your post though. Would you mind posting who you carry your business insurance under? I know the last quote I received for business insurance (property, machinery, inventory, no liability) was $1800/mo. So I get curious when people who do carry insurance talk about it.

Lon Paul's unfortunate experience tells me that you need good insurance, not only for client protection but just as important, for the shop and contents.

Fal Grunt, I sent you a private message.

Colin

Ha, yes threads here tend to get off topic.

Nathaniel thanks for putting a monthly amount on things, not that it would make me happier if I'm the one screwed because of no insurance I can understand why a person would maybe decide to roll the dice. I think obviously part of the factor would be how likely you are to need the insurance. I don't want to get into an ethical discussion at this point of the position it outs a client in when suddenly his gun is destroyed and he's left w diddly.

Red



While not wanting to exacerbate the off topic (I wonder which off topic replies came from attorneys ) a good coffee pot brews at 205 degrees (the new one under my tree better) the cup the lady spilt on herself was 190. Nobody should have to pay for somebody else being stupid.

I may be the only one here, but I worry more about product liability than I do loss of a customers property. Loss of property is a finite amount of money that I am comfortable self insuring. Product liability is a blank check that can take all you own. It varies state to state, but hiding behind a corporate veil can be an illusion that disappears when you most need it.

Another thing to consider is that an insurance company provides your legal representation during a claim (it's their money too). Hiring your own attorney ain't cheap.

I use a company that specializes in firearm related businesses. My annual cost for liability coverage for $1m incident / $2m aggregate is about $1,000/yr. This amount also includes coverage for my tools & equipment. I don't want to openly advertise for them but I would give anybody the info that asks in a PM.

Thank you very much for you post mark, I appreciate it.

Red