I dont know what kind of walnut but I think it's black walnut, (because that is the color of the wood). How would I find out for sure?

I cut it into 4' lengths and hauled the logs over to an amish sawmill and had him cut it into 3" slabs. So now what? I heard that I am supposed to wax the ends and lay them in the rafters of the garage for 5 years. Is there anything else that I need to do? I have access to a dry kiln, but was told not to have them kiln dried for gunstocks, dont know why. Thanks in advance for any advice.

Call Robert Watts at Watts Walnut

He's a good fellow. Tell him what you have done and ask his advise.

You probably should have asked for help before you did the slicing and dicing. There's an art to the cutting that will yield proper blanks. You'll need someone who knows a bit about proper layout to help cut blanks from your slabs. The blanks ought to be cut before drying the wood.

How big and how old was the tree? It takes a BIG tree to yield high quality blanks.

quote:

It takes a BIG tree to yield high quality blanks.

Yes it does and if you wind up with plain grained blanks in the end, you'll be a bit upset with your investment.

I can buy a straight plain grained walnut stock 95% inlet for less than what it costs me to have my fancy blanks inletted alone!

First off you should have never had the blanks cut from green wood !. It would have been better to Season the Log first !. Cut heart timber and leave bark , sap wood attached !. Seal ends ( I prefer epoxy sealer ) or Latex paint or any paint just to seal the ENDS !.

At this point it's a real good idea to ( Enclose the log or logs in an Air tight plastic bag tent or ?. ) Then put a couple of Bug bombs off in it while leaving it closed up !!. kills any unwanted eating insects !. After a week or so get them out of the bag !.

Next after a couple of years with them stored inside a covered shed or ? . Some where AIR circulates but out of direct sun !.A garage is not Ideal unless it's got air movement through it all the time !.

* I use a heavy steel vertical clamp ( It's like a set up for gluing doors or very large panels . There are 40 vertical channel Iron pieces ( 2" X 4" X 72" ) in mine ,20 per side . They open about 3' in width and will accommodate anything 20' X 3' X 6' ( Big Stuff )or any length or width and height smaller than that .

One can do a fair job of stacking and weighting or simply turn a piece of channel on edge or heavy steel tubing . Don't let the steel or Iron actually touch the wood , use a either hard plastic buffer or several layers of duct tape .Then strap it to the log about every foot or so !. Use plastic or nylon strapping to prevent staining . ( NO STEEL STRAPPING ) (* All of the above is to minimize warping for air drying . After a couple of years stick a moisture meter in it and see where it's at ?.Do this in the end grain ( sealed areas check 4 ,6 places in each end . Once it has reached an equilibrium point ( Stable depending on your local humidity level ).

It's then time to have it Quarter Sawn or flitched cut for figure enhancement .Then Kiln dried !. Then final dimension cut for stock making . Hope this helps Next time ?.

The reason for not allowing steel to actually touch the wood is because of reactions with the woods lignin's ( It causes staining ) ...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
Then Kiln dried !

I thought that kiln drying was considered to be a no no??

It would be nice to see some pictures. If it has streaks of black in it,its english walnut. All english walnut trees are started when they first are planted,they are grafted from a black walnut base.

Sorry, I cannot post pictures at this time, but I dont see any streaks. The tree was up-rooted in a storm and I had to "Get it out of there". I got the slabs back from the sawmill yesterday, he charged me $36.00 for the cutting of 40 slabs. Not all of them will make it into gunstocks, but I think most will do alright and I might get 2 blanks out of some of the slabs. The wood looks good to me, and yes, mainly strait grained. I wanted the tree for sentimental reasons more than anything. If I happen to find another, I will refer to the forum before cutting. However, on this one I had no time.

quote:

Originally posted by van:
It would be nice to see some pictures. If it has streaks of black in it,its english walnut. All english walnut trees are started when they first are planted,they are grafted from a black walnut base.

Thats not entirely accurate. There are seedling english trees grown from english seedlings. Most california english trees are grafted onto CLARO root stock. IIRC.

I would wax the ends. I've heard some people like to put a screw in the end and hang them to prevent (reduce) warping.

Sounds like your out a whole $36

Terry

http://www.labarbarie.com/grume.htm

This is how it should dry, after having been unrooted...

If you don't have wax, then use paint and get to it fast. Like yesterday.

Stickering lumber properly will also help reduce checks.

Punch "stickering lumber" into google and take your first half dozen hits to see this done, but get on the ends fast. Really fast.

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
If you don't have wax, then use paint and get to it fast. Like yesterday.

Stickering lumber properly will also help reduce checks.

Punch "stickering lumber" into google and take your first half dozen hits to see this done, but get on the ends fast. Really fast.

Brent

Good advice, & with stock blanks you will want to sticker closer together with your stickers.
No idea why someone advised to store it as a log. It will only dry @ an inch a year. I'd go ahead at this point and sticker & dry it. It will take @ 3 years to air dry. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with kiln drying except that you'll get more loss from warping & checking. I used a solar kiln that relaxed the wood at night and it had very low loss from that. Only @ 1-3%. It would have been better to cut it into large cants to lay out the grain and plan it for stocks if it's nice wood. But average straight walnut goes for about what red oak does, last I heard so it's probably OK.

I recommend sealing ends with what professional concerns use !. Not wax !. Storing as a log for the first couple or years with bark and sap wood in place , this allows relaxing as well as proper pre drying !. Unless one has an E Back or dehumidifying kiln !. Wood that is " Green " must be allowed to Air dry for a while to minimize warp , shrinkage , twist , shake . If you cut green wood into slabs or blanks ( Even with proper stickering !. You end up with junk wood or fire wood!.

Kiln drying removes moisture different woods different schedules ( Drying times , temp. duration Etc. ) . Some woods collapse even when air drying ( Cell structures become unstable ) Honey comb is a slang name for that condition .

Last kiln drying wood is by far the BEST for any hardwood finished project that will be protected by a finish or that is mainly stored inside away from the elements !.

Consider this for a nightmare situation . A home owner in Florida cuts a tree air dries his wood . Moisture content 17 -23 % ?. Makes his stock , puts his action in beds the whole 9 Yd. !. Now he goes on a hunt say for Dahl Sheep high altitude 6 % humidity or a hunt in Africa on the Sahara !?. Your wood just twisted it's self and the gun wouldn't hold zero any more !. That's why you kiln dry and seal with a quality finish !.
I recommend Urethane several coats on every sq." of the stock . Then if one prefers an Oil finished look . Simply knock down the gloss with wool and oil or rub it out dull !. By far a superior wood treatment for Real World elements !.

It was my business for over 30 years importing Exotic woods from around the world . I've seen trees felled in the Forest on several continents.
Some you can't even begin to fathom the sizes of.

Interesting tid bit is the CSIRO old forestry building in Queensland Australia . Part of It sets on a BlackButt or E. Pilularis stump . It was 34 Ft. in Dia.

I used to dry wood for a living and have no idea how many tens of millions of board feet I have dried. I also know how to whittle on a stick of walnut and finish it good enough to follow me on trips to 4 continents in environments more varied than most people see in their life time, with no change in zero.

I would not buy a piece of walnut that had been in a kiln. Hell, I would not even take a free piece of kiln dried walnut and make a stock out of it.

Can you tell us more about the actual finish you use on the kiln dried walnut stocks you make, as well as your application method? Are you making these stocks from the blank? If so, how does the kiln dried wood work as compared to the air dried walnut?

I am not an expert, by any means, but from my experience, there is a vast difference between gunstocks and other woodworking wood needs. First, I have never started on a gunstock where the blank was not at least dry to between 8-10% moisture content. 17-23% is outrageous.

I also bought exactly one claro blank that was kiln dried. After a couple weeks of trying, it became candle holders and turkey call strikers on the lathe. It became too hard to do precision work on. It was hard, chipped easily, tore easily and was otherwise just nasty. Never again.

Kiln drying is fine for furniture, boat trim, cabinets and general wood carving, but not for anything that requires tight tolerances. If I am turning bowls, I will rough turn wet and then seal and let dry, but not stocks. I let them air dry to 8-10%, then work.

Again, I am not a professional, but that is my experience.

Bingo, Give that man a cigar!

Michael McIntosh put it this way in one of his books: Anyone who has ever made a bird house thinks they can make a gun stock.

When I read that, I did not take it as derogatory or a put down, but I interpretted it as he was saying just because a person can make something out of wood, does not necessarily mean they can build a proper stock by transferring their knowledge to that endevor.

FOr some reason people often want to use glues or finishes that are fine for general wood working on gunstocks. I know of no other use for wood that has to perform to such a high degree of accuracy over such a varied set of environmental conditionds. Proper stocks have to be made withing just a few thousandths of an inch, and maintain those dimensions over an elevation range of 20,000', temperature range of 170°F, desert, rain forest, and worst of all...baggage handlers.

what I find interesting is everyone seems to have a different answer

Also, I believe a stock can be warped on purpose
by pressure and very hot lindseed oil, for cast off etc. So I suppose it could be done to correct any natural warpage?

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Also, I believe a stock can be warped on purpose
by pressure and very hot lindseed oil, for cast off etc. So I suppose it could be done to correct any natural warpage?

Yes, but not with the sort of precision you might want to keep a fore end off the barrel.

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
what I find interesting is everyone seems to have a different answer

I'm more confused now than when I started this thread.

I have never found one professional who does not agree with how you should dry walnut. Not one person I trust and seek guidance from will work with walnut that has been kiln dried or steamed-air dying only.

It has been said umpteen times in this forum, and even in this thread, that stockmaking is not like furniture making, birhouse making, or other woodworking.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
I recommend sealing ends with what professional concerns use !. Not wax !. Storing as a log for the first couple or years with bark and sap wood in place , this allows relaxing as well as proper pre drying !. Unless one has an E Back or dehumidifying kiln !. Wood that is " Green " must be allowed to Air dry for a while to minimize warp , shrinkage , twist , shake . If you cut green wood into slabs or blanks ( Even with proper stickering !. You end up with junk wood or fire wood!.

I see there are a lot of different opinions on this. Most factory stocks are made from kiln dried wood. I owned a sawmill & kiln for a number of years and didn't have the problems you are talking about. There is some loss in kiln drying green wood (within 6 months of cutting) (usually 4-6%) but it doesn't reduce all the wood to "junk". My kiln was solar which dries the wood at about half the speed of a conventional kiln. It also relaxes it at night which cuts the (warp & check) loss in half. Even so, I've used a lot of kiln dried walnut for stocks with no problems at all. Once it's dry & stable it's fine to use. In fact, the kiln may subject it to more stress and therefore show that it's more stable. If it doen't warp in the extremes of the kiln, it's unlikely to under normal conditions. I'd want to let it sit for a good while after rough sawing the blank to size just to make sure it's not going to warp after coming out of the kiln. I agree with you on the latex paint sealing of the end grain. Always worked for me. I also agree on the "sealing" with polyurethane stock finish. However, it still doesn't prevent dimensional changes. It does "breathe" to some extent. The antique boat boys have done a lot of research on it.

Wood is not, by nature, a stable material. It is constantly changing with conditions, humidity, temperature, age etc causes it to change.

The important part is, of course, the barrel channel & forend. I always mill a slot in the forend under the barrel & bed it heavily with epoxy. You can put a fiberglass dowel or an aluminum bar in it. I've used carbon fibers too. This minimizes changes in point of impact. I marketed a kit for doing this, in the American Rifleman, years ago.

Even with it's shortcomings, wood is still the only stock material I'd ever use.

Greg
If God meant for man to have synthetic stocks, he'd have planted synthetic trees .

Be warned!

Here is what can happen when you use kiln dried Black Walnut.

That's just horrible Rusty. Send them both to me right away so that I can "dispose" of them properly.

The problem with kiln drying is that if you put walnut 3 " thick in with a batch of 1" oak you will have a problem !! Properly dried in a kiln is fine but it must be done for that particular wood and thickness !! Do wax or paint the ends otherwise you will get cracks.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
It has been said umpteen times in this forum, and even in this thread, that stockmaking is not like furniture making, birhouse making, or other woodworking.

I love the way you guys can look down your noses at anyone else that works with wood.

I'm going to go back to making my air-dried bird houses now.

Brent

Well as with every question one ends up with K's of answers !.

If you really want to know how to properly air dry wood before kiln drying , then allowing wood to equalize . I would suggest one of three things .

Go to college , work in the industry , or contact Forest Products laboratory in Madison WI. Or even be associated with the ASTM !.

I did on all accounts !. Does that make my way the only way ?. NO it does not . My way works for the LEAST amount of degrade in the wood fiber !. Drying wood in a Kiln does NOT degrade or ruin wood in any way shape or form . UNLESS that wood was prone to defect from the start or improper drying schedule was done on it to begin with .

Who ever posted Kiln dried wood works on boats is sorely mistaken !. Unless it's in a cabin with air conditioning and totally sealed .

Boat timber is rarely if ever kiln dried !. What would be the point ?. I've had the good or misfortune depending on ones point of view !. Restoring boats !. From a 3 masted Brig. to classic runabouts Chris Crafts , Century , Whites to many sail boats . Oak, cedar, Mahogany teak , Iron bark , green heart and Spruce to name a few . Try steam bending 28 Ft. X 3" thick varying width White Oak for fastening plank to frame . It's Carvel planking Then drill and screw finally drive split tees with wedge . Almost forgot the real fun Cotton caulking with an Iron and mallet !.

Do that type of work for a few years and you'll look like a cross between Popeye and a Gorilla !.


My whole point was that a person living in a HIGH HUMIDITY AREA such as Florida would never get the wood down to 8-10 % !. Anyone happen to know where the driest area is in the USA ?.
I'll save you all the trouble of looking RENO NV. . That's right RENO . 4 % relative humidity !. Now what does your 10 % Air dry do ??.

By proper air drying along with kiln drying , then allowing the wood to equalize a small amount of moisture back into it's self . This Stabilizes it for better all around usage !.

I've cut glued laminated more materials together than I care to remember . NOT one time NOT one can I ever remember a piece of wood being to " Dry " to work .

Some woods are different to work with such as Iron bark E. Paniculata or Lignum Vitae Guaiacum Zygophyllaceae . These woods tear up carbide cutters even green . Because of their properties.

Black Walnut or Juglans nigra ( which means Jupiter's nut )is but one of several Walnut species .Such as Cirassian or European walnut Juglans regia or Royal , new Guinea Walnut or Japanese walnut Juglans coriformis . Claro walnut is found in Southern Oregon and Northern CA. On and On .

Then there are Burl wood of the species which can tear out upon planing if not worked carefully .

I was for many years involved in the importation of hardwoods from around the world most times in log form . Or Air dried flitch slabs or " Raw Lumber " . I how ever did purchase finish Kiln dried products in various dia. .

Lumber concerns that have there shit together who produced products the Correct way !. Stacked weighted air Dried then kiln dried .Or started and finished with E back drying before producing profiles in there products . Now I wonder why that is ?.

Rusty shame on you using kiln dried material to produce those shameful stocks . ( would you like me to take them off your hands ?? I hope I hope )

brayhaven ; I didn't mean to imply all wood would go to shit !. Proper drying if by Air or Kiln is essential for maximum yield . Cutting blanks from freshly sawed trees is not in ones best interest . I believe even you would agree with that !.

Mete ; Yes that's what's known as kiln scheduling . Not only can they be done together but different species and varying thickness are very common place . It's at what temp. duration and in some cases if an E back system is used what draw of evacuation of moisture content is used .

It has been clearly shown E Back Systems dry faster with less degrade then any other method available . In some cases 4" thick green 85% too 8% in 26 days with days of "resting in between !. Not bad huh ?.

Now everyone please remember soft wood milling is " TOTALLY DIFFERENT " from hardwood milling .
Soft wood is pretty much green cut lumber a small amount of air drying prior to sawing with a high degree of moisture left in the wood while milling it .

This concludes todays lesson in wood . By all means do what ever floats your boats !...

Brent-

I am very sorry if it came across that I was looking down my nose at anyone. Seriously, if that is how it read I do appologize, as that means I did not state it properly. The only point I was trying to make is there are differences. To me, it is not that one thing is better or of higher order than any other, just that gunstocks are truly in a unique catagory of wood working.

I am sorry if it came across as condescending or anything. It was totally uinintentional

You need never apologize to me for an opinion .

I'm never offended . To ease your fears about Kiln drying . It's simply removing excess moisture from the wood . Then after it's done the wood will stabilize at ambient air temp. & humidity . It's a round about way of saying it's Air dried again !.

The problem is some areas of the USA are to dry some are to damp .

So I prefer to know what I have to start with .

Many Years ago I shipped several k's of Bd Ft. to a retailer in Reno NV. My wood was Kiln dried 8% standard because it was in profile ( Flooring , glue lam beam , decking ) I assumed the dealer had a show room with air conditioning or where house with air or at least a humidifier set up !. WRONG !!.

Know what they say about assumptions !. Mother of ALL SCREW UPS !.

I got a call a few weeks later and the guy was just Livid !. I couldn't and wouldn't repeat the adjectives he used to describe me and my F ing wood !. Some of It twisted and warped something awful.

My point is it lost about 4% more moisture and went south in two weeks. Now imagine if I had sent him wood from San Diego CA. Air dried at ( Normal 12% -14% ).

More than likely would of put a contract out on me !.

I'll let you in on a secret , if you work wood in an air conditioned room or store it in like setting it goes to 8 % !. Drying down then allowing a little moisture to return I E Air dried is OK provided you don't live in Borneo or Florida !.

Air dry in Borneo gets about 33% after 10 -25 years !. ...

Heres is something scarier . I have a Ms.D. in Structural Engineering along with a Ph.D. in organic Chemistry .
I know far more about composites than I should adhesives ,fibers , plastics and coatings .

I know dam little about gun smithing. Even less about metal working !.

I will admit I've worked many a stock !. I've glued up exotic laminations blanks for several stock makers . One of my best friends father is a custom stock maker I've watched him do almost every aspect of the craft . I've never made one !!. So never apologize to me for anything !.

I have done numerous turnings bowls too legs in wood on my lathe a machinist made for me . It will turn 22" Dia. X 120" in length . I've made custom doors ( large entry style with lites ) cabinets tables furniture name it I've more than likely made it one time or another. Not one stock though .
That how ever will change . My friends father has retired one guess as to where his blanks ended up . Yep in my shop !. 38 years of his personal accumulations !!!!!!!!!...

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