To all,

Just had an interesting experience with a customer and a rifle that I put together for him. The rifle was a stainless Rem M700 chambered in 375 RUM.

He came into the shop claiming that this rifle kicked the H___! out of him and that he wanted me to fix the problem. Also he stated that it really was not a real accurate rifle.

We got him set up with a Holland Quick discharge brake which I felt cut the recoil to about that of a 300 Win Mag sensation. Still he thought this was to much.

I tried to explain to him that any rifle generating nearly 5500 ft/lbs of energy will always have some push to it. Still he though I could take it all away.

I commented that a laminated wood stock would add weight and dimension compared to the factory composite stock as well as allow me to give him a high quality bedding job as well.

As he was a big man, about 6'6", I also ordered him a 1.4" Kick-Eez magnum recoil pad.

With everything fitted and bedded. I sent the rifle home with the customer with instructions to let the rifle set for one week before firing to ensure the steel bed had fully cured.

Well about three weeks later, this customer called and said how amazed he was with the low recoil of the rifle and better yet, with the sub one inch groups he was getting. Sounded like a happy customer for sure.

Just the other day, I ran into the fella at the range and he had him 375 with him. As it was setting on the bench I noticed a crack running about 3" behind the rear of the action. I pointed this out to the owner and asked if I could take the rifle back to the shop to see why it was cracked.

After removing the action, it appeared that the stock had cracked clear up to and through the front action screw hole.

I called the manufacturer and asked how they recommend to have their actions bedded with heavy recoiling rifles.

The first guy I spoke with said to pillar bed the action as well as pin the stock for and aft the action. On a second phone call, I was told they recommend only pinning the stock and never to pillar bed a heavy kicking magnum.

My question to all of you is what do you do? I ask this because I have pillar bedded a few stocks for larger small bore magnums with very good results. For example, my personal Rem M700 in 300 RUM drives the 180 gr Ballistic Silvertip to 3380 fps and puts them into 1/2 moa groups after fitting the action to a thumbhole laminated stock which I pillar bedded and then steel bedded.

What do you other smiths prefer? Should the big magnum stocks only be pinned and if so why? Or should both pinning and pillar bedding be done.

Thank you for your time and experience!

50

[ 11-03-2003, 08:38: Message edited by: Fiftydriver ]

Well I will be interested to hear the feedback on this one, if the firearm maker reckons it needs bedding and or pillers to stop the stock from splitting why the shit didn't they do it at the factory in the first place. stuff em, send it back and ask for a refund...Les

Fiftydriver:

It may be possible that you have a combination of things stacking up against you.

The first thing to remember is the fact that the entire concept of pillar bedding came about with fiberglass stocks and Remington rifles. The round bottomed Remington actions (even when steel bedded) have a lot of wedging action when pulled down tight into the stock. With the fiberglass stocks some people were tightening down so tight that they were cracking through the thin fiberglass shell (not all stocks, some are solid epoxy in the action area).

The same thing could be happening to your stock, but in a slightly different manner. The round action is possibly wedging into the stock and causing the stock to delaminate. Maybe it's a defective stock, maybe not.

I should think, irregardless what the stock maker thinks, that the pillar bedding would help the situation. The stock screw would need to be properly clearanced, but that would take a lot of the side load off of the laminations. Recoil bolts would definitely help. I would also make sure that the recoil plate had clearance on the bottom, sides and even the front.

Adding a second recoil lug on the barrel will help. Sean

From your description sounds to me as if rear, and possibly front, action screws were making contact with wood. Also insure trigger housing well clear of the wood.

Through bolt front and rear to fix crack. Relieve areas you bedded so that room for twice the thichness of Devcon used first time. Insure that action/barrel are not wedged and that sides, bottom and front of recoil lug are free of contact with stock.

Wally

Never pillar bed a big bore magnum! The pillars will wedge the stock under recoil, and split it real good. Leave about .025" clearance around all the action screws. Full length bed the action, leaving a minimum .03" clearance between stock and tang to avoid tang wedging.

Cross bolts can be installed behind the action recoil lug <ideally bearing directly against the lug> and behind the rear action screw <again bearing directly against the screw shank>. Also, if there is room, install a cross bolt between the trigger group and the magazine mortise to help stiffen this area as it will bulge during recoil, which will slip the stock wood between the trigger and magazine mortises.

By the way, the VERY best cross bolt design was utilized on the original M98 Mauser. It is a SQUARE block that is inserted into the stock and practically eliminates wedging concerns, although it is a bit more difficult to fit attractively. Round cross bolts MUST be liberally glassed <this is VERY tricky since there is precious little wood in the area and care must be taken not to remove too much wood> to reduce the effects of the wedging due to the a ROUND pin. The best way to cross bolt is to set the cross bolt as close as possible to the recoil lug and having the pin directly contacting the lug <as previously stated>.

That is a good start. Hopefully is is slightly clearer than mud. Oh, this is applicable to wood stocks, cannot comment on plastic.

I noticed that the crossbolt in my old military 8mm mauser stock is the square block. Anybody know a company that makes these? I too think that they make more sense than the round crossbolt, but then again, I don't know anything about bedding, crossbolting etc. so maybe I am wrong on that.

thanks all.

Red

I bed the action in glass....I add a 2nd recoil lug and glass it, then I cross bolt the stock twice..You can drill out behind the tang, insert a threaded bolt in glass if you wish and glass the tang, but leave 20 thousands gap behind the tang itself...

You do not have to glass all wood as good inletting will work on certain woods that are properly cured and laid out, but glass is a good precaution even then as in time recoil may pound a gap in the lug area or it may shrink from a climate change, whatever?......The second recoil lug 5"s up the barrel is the most important addition...Piller bedding is not for my big bore guns, but wouldn't hurt anything in addition to the other suggested options.

This is for big bores from about 416 and up, but even the .375 can benifit from this procedure IMO.....

The 458 Lott and up are the problem guns..Many 416's are fine with a proper glass job or even with proper bedding in good wood and nothing more.

I am talking big bore using guns, they need all the help you can give them....

Dago Red,
The only purpose of a cross bolt is to hold the flat sides of the action area of the stock together as they warp outwards on firing, thus cause splitting of the recoil lug etc..by cross bolting you prevent splitting, has nothing to do with square or round bolts, just holding together.

Some manufactures put a square piece of steel directly behind the recoil lug in some Mausers such as the Brnos 21 and 22F, for whatever reason..it is there for accuracy I suspect as it is loose so to speak...

My Sako L61R has a square crossbolt under the recoil lug. Is there any downside other than future removal to glass bedding this?

Ray

I have seen the square bolts on a couple of British boomers I have engraved. One was completely square and the other had flats milled on two surfaces only. They were inlet into the stock so the recoil lug was bearing directly onto the cross bolt. Sort of a two birds with one stone situation.

Thamk you for all the replies, alot of food for thought.

For those that wondered how the action was bedded, there is 0.005" clearance in front, bottom and sides of recoil lug.

Also, the action bolts were releaved with .010" clearance on all sides of screws.

My only question is about some of the comments about clearance concerning the tang of the action.

I have always bedded a support pad under the tang with nothing behind the tang itself. I have never left any clearance between the tang and the bedding and have had no problems up till this rifle.

Perhaps I just do not understand what you are trying to say when you talk about this clearance.

If you could explain this in more detail it would be most appreciated as this has always been a trouble free area in my bedding of the M700 as long as there is no bedding compound or stock for the tang to bare against under recoil.

Agian thank you for your experience and help!

50