Does anyone have any experience or knowledge on rebarreling a Lee Enfield #4 to 6.5 Swede? The case does have the same 'rim' thickness and the SAAMI pressure for both cartridges are the same and the internal case base area is similar.

Post WW2 a lot of these were rebarreled into 7.62 NATO, I think initially as reserve rifles but a version was the British Armys Sniper Rifle at one stage. AFAIK, the change involved rebarreling, a new bolt head & a new 10 round box mag. There was also a cut down stock (no fore end wood) but beyond this I can't help. If you could lay your hands on a bolt head & mag from one of these conversions you'd be a long way down the road. I've never seen reference to them in NZ so can't help you there. The UK would be the place to look & they've got some really funny gun laws.
Good luck.
Steve.

I Australia there were a host of "wildcat" calibres based on the standard 303 necked down. These included the 303/25 among others. I think that there may even be gunsmiths that have these barrels still available.

6.5 Swedish it isn't, but then again there won't be any problems with feeding or altering magazine well profiles! It might be worth considering for that benefit alone...at one time I even had some 303/25 FACTORY ammunition and an SMLE in that calibre!

303/22 MEREDITH
50gn bullet - 34gn 3031 - 3,770fps - Pressure 43,000lb/sq.in

303/22 MEREDITH 35 DEGREE
50gn bullet - 34gn 3031 - 3230fps - Pressure 32,900lb/sq.in

303/25 (OR 25 KRAG)
60gn bullet - 40gn 4064 - 3,800fps - USE 257 ROBERTS LOADS REDUCED 25%

87gn bullet - 40gn 4064 - 3,200fps - MAXIMUM

I hope that this is of some use...it comes from "Handbook for Handloaders" by RB TUNNEY 1958! Most of these conversions were based on the weaker No1 (SMLE) action, not the stronger No4 action.

In Canada there were the well know "Epps" (Ellwood Epps) improvements to the 303 based on that cartridge either blown out or also necked down for use in the P.14 rear locking lug action these were quite powerful "upgrades"!

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:


In Canada there were the well know "Epps" (Ellwood Epps) improvements to the 303 based on that cartridge either blown out or also necked down for use in the P.14 rear locking lug action these were quite powerful "upgrades"!

Which action are you referring to as the "P.14 rear locking lug action"? Every P-14 I have ever seen was a front locking lug action, exactly like the P-17 "American Enfield", except chambered for .303 Brit ammo and with an extractor for that round. They were often preferred for conversion to such magnum cartridges as the 450 Ackley Mag because the .extractor intended for the .303 was pretty much useable for the magnum rounds as issued.

Another good place to look for spares (parts) for 7.62 NATO "Lee-Enfield" bolts would be Canada. A pretty fair number of the 7.62 NATO-chambered rifles were manufactured at Long Branch for the Canadian military, in the No. 4, Mk I* configuration (and a few in the No. 4, Mk II form). I have owned several of them in new condition and they were splendid rifles for competition at Connaught and Bisley (especially when set up by Joe Gibault of British Columbia the way he did for many years, for B.C. provincial team members.)

Oops! I meant FRONT locking!

Thanks for the responses, folks.

I am pretty sure the Enfield extractor will work as is for the Swede. The cases fit the magazine and strip out well enough. I have seen one 7.62 Nato No.4 at a Bisley range. I once machined the rim off, and a groove into, a 303 case. It extracted and ejected just fine.

Regarding the 303-25, does that equal the 250 Savage in performance? I have seen the odd barell turn up and a young friend bought a 303-25 rifle on an SMLE that I found for him. The 6.5 seems like a good compromise between performance and recoil! (Meaning a lighter rifle for me to carry around). Also, one can get 160gr bullets for 6.5 for close range bush hunting.

7.62mm or .308 will NOT reliably extract and eject in an unmodified No4 or SMLE! You WILL need to modify the rilfe slightly especially the length, and possible position, of the ejector screw where it passes through the action wall and the extractor may need to be relieved on its "arm" so that it comes in more across the bolt face.

I see no reason why one could not use the heavier bullet in the 303/25 and I suppose that a safe loading would be any for the 6.5mm x 54 MS...but I cannot definitely confirm that!

Or look here:

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=43520

How about 303-270? Those 303 wildcats were popular in Australia at one time.

quote:

7.62mm or .308 will NOT reliably extract and eject in an unmodified No4....

Agreed. I was a long time ago. The extractor would definitely have been modified - the original does not fit the 308 case extractor groove. To my knowledge, the extractor is lengthened and made a little closer to the bolt faced and the lead in angle changed. However, the one I saw was a single shot target rifle, so reliable ejection would not have been a major issue. It worked just fine when I was watching. (I do seem to remember the shooter saying that only the extractor was changed?). Still, if modifying the ejector screw and maybe the extractor is all that is required, then I have no problem. Those are items I can do myself. I do suspect that the standard extractor will work as is on the Swede case – I was testing one on the bolt face and comparing it to the 303 case. The Swede case head fits the bolt face/extractor rather well, I thought.

quote:

I see no reason why one could not use the heavier bullet in the 303/25 .....

My reason for considering the Swede is the case head/extractor groove dimensions, the medium SAAMI pressure of the cartridge and the fact that I like the idea of a 6.5 bore. But you are right, a 120 gr 257 bullet at 2700 fps should be just fine for most shooting. I do anticipate the occasional shot at a large feral pig that might require substantial penetration. Wouldn't the 120gr bullet be a bit fast for close up penetrating shots?

quote:

How about 303-270? ...

That's a thought, ikesdad. I have seen a barrel for sale here in NZ. Just one question 'though, are the available bullets suitable for the lower velocity the 303-270 would produce? And will I be able to drive a varmint bullet fast enough to make it double as an all round rifle? (OK, that was two questions ). Also, if I could get a No.4 303-270 barrel, it would be a simple screw on job. Plus, cases would be an easy neck down.

I would warrant that a 25" barrel 303/270 will send a bullet exiting the barrel an not too much velocity below any and all 22" barrel Ruger or other rifles in 270 Winchester!

It won't compete with the 2905 fps I can get with a 140 grain bullet in my 23.50" BRNO ZKK...but it won't be too far behind that Ruger!

Factory 150 grain 303 ammunition as loaded by was 2769 fps but of course easier in the 311" than the 277" owing to larger base size. So I suppose that you 303/270 would be there or thereabouts.

In fact why not just go 150 grain 303?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 303Guy:
the one I saw was a single shot target rifle, so reliable ejection would not have been a major issue. It worked just fine when I was watching. I do anticipate the occasional shot at a large feral pig that might require substantial penetration. Wouldn't the 120gr bullet be a bit fast for close up penetrating shots?

QUOTE]



Most of the ones made in Canada at Long Branch were single-shots. They were made by the arsenal for Canadian military target shooting competitions primarily; some few allegedly for sniping.

BUT, the standard .303 magazine most definitely will NOT feed 7.62 NATO ammo unless heavily modified. Special magazines were made for those which needed to be used as 7.62 NATO repeaters, and those magazines seem almost impossible to come by without buying one with its rifle. If you run across an Envoy with its .308 magazine, you have to be prepared to pay mucho bucks these days.


To be honest, for your use, I would ignore the .303/270, .303/25, any of those. May I suggest you could possibly acomplish the ends you want simply by having your chamber "improved" to something such as the .303 Epps (or any other sharper shouldered, blown-out version)? load lighter, bullets at higher velocities for most purposes, and heavier bullets for heavy-boned animals which are more stubborn about dying. Wouldn't need a new barrel, OR a new magazine, and/or new extractor.

There are no flies on the old .303 round by itself. "Improved" versions are just a bit more of an already good thing.

I know lots of folks will likely jump in now saying all kinds of negative things about "improved" cases/chamberings. Some few of those criticisms might even have some meat to them. But the improved cases proved themselves useful time and again for many years, so a person just has to go with what looks like it will work for him, and no-one else.

quote:

Wouldn't need a new barrel, OR a new magazine, and/or new extractor

I 'acquired' my No.4 specifically to cut down for use in thick bush for pig hunting and hunting in the rain. It is a *1 with a two groove barrel. It still has its original receiver sights but has a sporter stock. I have not tested it for accuracy yet but I don't expect anything 'spectacular'. I already have a scoped 1902 Mk1 *1 LMLE actioned sporter (complete with dust cover) with a No.4 barrel and tight chamber. It is fitted with a Musgrave African Walnut stock. But it is heavy and the recoil, while just a firm 'push', prevents me from seeing my impact. So, what I am after is much lighter rifle without more recoil for 'dragging' through the bush all day, over and above my backpack. Then I want to be able to do reasonable range varminting/hunting with the same rifle. That No.4 has such a slick, quick action that I have changed my mind about just shortening it. The Swede would give me 2500+ fps with 140gr bullets and 2800+ with 120gr and 3200+ with 95gr bullets and at a push for heavies, 2200+ with the 160gr RN. And that at no more than 45000 CUP, which is the 303 standard. But since you mention the Epps improved 303, I would not be adverse to a 6.5-303 Epps wildcat! If I did that, I would build myself a hydraulic 'fire forming' press. The beauty of using a rimmed case for a wildcat base is that the chamber can be lathe turned and the sizing dies and forming dies turned on the same lathe settings (allowing for spring-back).

Hello Guys (and 303Guy, nice to see you hereabouts).

I have just started playing with a 303/25, mine is a rechambered Tikka 2506 barrel fitted to a NEF Handi rifle barrel stub. This should be a bit stonger than most SMLE's, at least on a par with a good No 4.

I haven't shot mine yet except for some work-up loads shot into the ground. I'm up to 41.5 gns of H4832 behind a 100 gn boolit. I hope to get it up to about 42 - 45 gns of H4831, which should give about 2700 - 2800 with the 100 grainers (all estimates, loads empirical, don't copy this in any other rifle).

But if I was doing it again (or had prperly thought it through at the beginning) I would have used a rimmed 257 roberts and made the brass fromm 444 Marlin stuff (although 7x57 rimmed brass is sometimes avaliable here in NZ).

The reason for this is just about every 303-25 chambering reamer is different from the other,it must be the most non standardised (barstardised ??) wildcat out there - this leads to all sorts of issues with dies etc.

It would be interesting to play with some 7x57 rimmed brass in an SMLE to see if it feed OK. The you'll have no problem with dies, reamers etc, and could even go for a 6.5x57 rimmed.

Cheers - Foster

Cheers - Foster

Hi Tentman, 7x57R? Great idea! In a push one could get away with 7x57 cases. (might not work too well in an unmodified mag and might not extract and or eject too well). I think I will look into that one! If Bell could shoot elephant with it then I can shoot pig with it! I believe it will drive a 115 gr bullet to about 3000 fps without exceeding 303 pressure levels. And a 168 gr bullet to about 2400 with our AR2208.

I have a .303/22, a .303/270 and now have just acquired a .303/25. The .303/270 (a proper Sportco made offering on a SMLE action) is difficult to get grouping - 5 shot groups of 6" at 100 yds. I think that it may be the use of the 130gr Hornady bullets - will try Taipans later. The .303/22 on a No4 action, is a real *(%^$#(&^% to make cases for but shoots quite well - 5/8" 5 shot groups at 100 yds. I have just acquired a 303/25 (on a SMLE action) and found out why the previous owner sold it. It is quite well made and blued, but was set up for a side mount scope mount and the charger bridge removed.

I got a Millett scope mount base with the rifle and it appears that the previous owner had intended to put the Millett base on - an action he could not do with the absent charger bridge. I am just tossing up if I should put the barrel on another SMLE action or onto a spare No4 action. I do not intend to shoot anything other than 87 gr projectiles in this.

Hi there KimW9.
Don’t give up on your 303-25 just yet! My 1902 LMLE is fitted with a scope mounted on a very simple bridge arrangement I made. Mine is just soldered onto the receiver sides below the wood level and is made from 1.5mm steel plate. It allows the bolt dust cover to stay in place.

The problem with fitting the SMLE barrel onto a No.4 is that the thread start is different and so a new extractor recess has to be cut into the breach face. OR, one can set the barrel back to get the extractor groove to line up but then, if the chamber is tight, it has to be reamed. I did the latter to my 303, giving me a nice tight chamber.

Another possibility is to do a deal with me. I have a mate with a very nice 303-25 fitted with scope and synthetic stock, in almost mint condition - and the idiot wants to sell it! I think he paid $450 for it (a good deal, I would say). How much would you be wanting for your 303-25? Check in you personal mail for my e-mail address. I can send you e-mail pic’s of my scope mount.

Cheers