Don, would you post the contact information for the person you are using? Thank you
Frank

People have said here that 1909's are soft and need heat treating, my smith feels they are harder than other masuers and said he will heat treat my action at my request but feels it is not needed. Also he said he will only heat treat the action and not the bolt...why would this be ??

He is very good at what he does by the way.

I have only had a few Mausers.

The depth of carburization on the 1909s is definitely thinner than VZ24s or my 1917 Oberndorf. You can tell this easily when grinding off the hump. The only place this really matters is on the bolt lugs and the mating surface in the action. If your smith removes little or no metal in this area while lapping the lugs and you are shooting reasonable loads then you can get by without re-carburization and heat treating -- and many do.

Most gunsmiths are not set up to do the re-carburization themselves. Re-heat treating a 1909 without re-carburizing first is of questionable value. We always say "heat treat" instead of "re-carburize and heat treat" just because it's easier to say and spell. (How do you spell "carburization" anyway?)

HTH

Don so if I ask to have my 1909 recarbourised first and then heat treated then that will be the best way to go ??

I have heard this too, but have fired a number of pretty stout loads in mine, (still in 7.65X53mm), and have seen no signs of bolt setback, or anything else untoward!

Mark Stratton had a friend who worked at Boeing do some non destructive testing on a Argentine 1909. They bombard the metal with a stream of electrons and then do a spectrum analysis of what comes off. It equated to cold rolled steel.

The conclusion was that there is very little carbon in cold rolled and reheat treating will do nothing. Packing with carbon and then case hardening will be of some help on the lug surfaces if you hand lap them and cut through the hard shell.

PC,

Chic has it right, the 1909 is essentially mild steel except for a thin skin where it was carburized at the factory.

Yes, I am having my 1909s carburized and then heat-treated. Here in the 'States that means it goes to a specialty shop that does both processes. The carburization is done in a special atmosphere that does not cause scale and the temperature profile is carefully controlled to minimize distortion.

Gunsmiths carburize small parts in their shops all the time, but they use methods that are not suitable for large. complex pieces like actions.

If you are asking your 'smith to do things he's not used to doing the results can be unfortunate.

Don has hit it right on the nose. I know from experience that if you take an action to a heat treater who doesn't know what they are doing you may get back a very warped and very hard action that may crack!!!

Blue

In general, Mausers made prior to the mid-1920's are of milder steel and need to be case-hardened if any of the original carbon casing has been removed or damaged. (A hard-boiled egg has more inherent strength if the shell is intact).

Mausers made after the mid-1920's are of harder steel and should be properly re-heat treated if the action has been subjected to any major changes, welding, or if it is a late-war German model and the original heat treatment is questionable.

09 Argentines were selectively case hardened. Most are not cased on the outside of the rec ring or rear bridge. They copper plated the actions and removed the copper where they wanted the case to take. then they stripped the copper off the outside. This is why people think mausers are soft. If they didn't strip all the copper off the lug surfaces before case hardening then the lug surfaces may be soft too. Just because it's soft on the outside doesn't mean it's soft where it counts

gunmaker

From all this I really think it would have been better not to use the 1909 action to buil a .404 jeffery project on. It's to late to stop now I am in to far so to speak

PC, It will be quite fine. A lot of very high pressure rounds have been built on them and they have stood the trial of time.

Chic's right, the Brits used them for everything and no-one had problems.
I have a very thick book at home, a compilation of articles written over the years about all the various wildcats that came down the pike. In there is the .460 Van Horn aka the .460 A-Square Short. Van Horn built that on an m1909 and a very pretty rifle it is. Now think about that: a .460 based cartridge on an m1909. He didn't have the benefits of A-Square's reloading manual but the loads listed were in the area of max from the A-Sq. manual. That is about 65,000psi on the .460 case head area. It didn't have problems. V.H. just backed down to around 2,250fps and called it good.

I don't disagree with what anyone said, but once again, I have a friend who is a gunsmith who built a 25.06 on an 09 action and after a few years he had setback to the point where he had to remove the barrel, cut it back and then rechamber. Maybe he was using loads that were too hot, or maybe he had an action that had been fooled with. Or maybe he shot it more than some people shoot thier rifles made on 09 actions. Or maybe it was too soft in the lug recess area!

Blue

If I can palm this project off I will, but I will keep buidling it at any rate I have to live with my decisions. In hind site I should have stuck with my beloved cz 550 for this project. I have a bit of a complex about things not lasting or being strong enough. I always by the heavy duty producteven though I know it is not always needed. Just the way I am I suppose.

Jeez,

If you're really worried get the darn thing recarburized. Don't cost much especially for piece of mind.

There was a thread not long ago about who does this sort of thing. Send yours in with a buddy's and it's half the price.

Dear PC,
I have the luck to have access to a Rockwell to check suspect actions PRIOR to being worked on for a customer. If the findings are not too good I send the action/bolt to Blanchards in Salt Lake City, Ut for recarburazation and treating. Cost is about 100.00 so it`s a small price to pay for the luxury of knowing the action is up to the job for which it is intended.They do excellent work from all the work they have done for me and others I have recommended them to.

Aloha, Mark[in Or]

Thanks for the help folks I will get it re-carbourised and treated and everything should be fine.

Check some of Jack Belk's past posts both here and over at Hunt America regarding the 1909. According to him (if memory serves me) the "Mauser" made 98s made prior to 1922 were case hardened. After that date they were alloy steel. All FN and BRNO made 98s were alloy. Jack said that it wasnt so much the steel as it was the design. And the 98 design is almost perfect.

PC, when you have an action heat treated it redistributes the carbon atoms throught the matrix to give you a more homogenious mix. Cold rolled steal has so little carbon that heat treating is not worth the effort and whatever has happened to it will not be detrimental in that respect. There is plenty of strength in that action with or without case hardening. Don't worry about it unless it is a hobby, lol.