I've been an interested spectator of the Bill Soverns thread and don't know enough to comment on Bill's behavior and its causes. But....

My question concerns the possible involvement of the Guild. Duane has expressed some concerns about the Guild's end of things and I'm interested in learning more. In the past I've considered trying to qualify for Guild membership myself but am unclear on a few things.

Does the Guild have any role in the business practices of its members? IOW does the Guild have any sort of process to discipline or sanction or blacklist or even to 'counsel' any member who doesn't fulfill his/her obligations? Is there an appeal process for the client's protection?

When I think of the word 'Guild' I remember the old Guilds of central Europe, powerful organizations that ensured the good reputation and comparative desirability of their products by policing their members' conduct and integrity.

I wonder how the ACGG compares to the European guild model, and what if anything they will do about this Soverns situation? IOW I guess I'm asking for details of just exactly what specific advantages and obligations would accrue to both the client and the craftsman by Guild membership?
Regards, Joe

J D,

The Guild does have an Ethics (or other name for the same purpose) Committee. It does have disciplinary authority, and I know of one now-former member whose behavior caused him to be removed from their roles of members. I had used that man for a number of projects, and over a several year period experienced the ever slower response, requests for partial payments etc and later learned no work had actually been done. Apparently, my experience was not unique.

JD Steele: I would personally invite you to attend a show. Get a "feel" for the guild and see if "fits"

The Eurpoean guilds would laugh at the ACGG...unfortunately, absolutely no comparison except in name.

A few of us tried for years make it a meaningful guild...we were always voted down because most members are..let's face it...part timers, retirees loking for a tax write off, or looking for some sort of glorious write up .

It's not my intention to make a broad, encompassing brush stroke, but as Hubert Hecht used to say "That's the way what it is"

Having made this critique, I am very anal when the Guild's reputation is besmirched by rotten apples.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

Having made this critique, I am very anal when the Guild's reputation is besmirched by rotten apples.

As well you should be!

I don't see what the Guild could do other the remove a member.

I have been somewhat disillusioned with the guild ever since about my third visit to the show and realized it was the same members with the same projects on display every year.

I have long had the opinion that every member should be required to show new work only.

One things for sure, folks outside of the ACGG are not going to set policy for members.
If any client of an ACGG member has a verifiable business problem with an ACGG 'Regular Member' that client can file a complaint with the ACGG Ethics committee.
Both sides of the issue will be investigated and the Ethics committee will make a recommendation based on its findings. I believe it is up to the BOD to act on the recommendation.
In my opinion, the biggest problem has been clients being reluctant to file a complaint.
I have been a regular member of the ACGG for more than 20 years (so long I can't recall!) and am a Life Member as of last year.
Best,
Steve

Duane

Custom gun work seems ideal as a part timer business. Kudos to those who can make a go of it fulltime but I think a lot of people such as Bill would have been far better off to keep it a "hobby" or side job and gradually work into a fulltime gig or just keep it part time.

Well, I'm one of those amateur part-timer retirees who dabble in the art on an as-interested basis, and I was curious. The ACGG states that their full membership is open only to full-time smiths who make their living from the work, or words to that effect, and I can appreciate that attitude so I never applied. Then I found some differing info, indicating that perhaps LOTS of part-time folks were members. Also found that perhaps the craftsmanship requirements and other things weren't exactly written in stone either, since my friend hst was apparently able to sneak in (VBG) on the basis of his single shot work without doing a bolt-action as specified in the written requirements.

Please don't misunderstand me, Glenn does absolutely the finest machine work I've ever seen and has built some truly spectacular rifles but he's still a sneaky devil and will sandbag one of his dryly-stated jokes on you in a heartbeat! I greatly envy his expertise in both artistry and humor.

Anyway I figured that $150/yr for an 'associate' membership wasn't what I needed, mighty expensive magazine subscription it seemed to me. I'd love to get the mag and all the back issues, it's the best and I could learn a LOT, but I've decided that a yearly membership is too expensive for a fellow on Social Security and who's not soliciting work from the general public anyway.

But I sure would like to be able to read the back issues!
Regards, Joe

That is interesting as I know several members who have never worked at it full time.

Not sure the accepted definition of full time but to me it would be a 40+ hr week and its your primary source of income.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
JD Steele: I would personally invite you to attend a show. Get a "feel" for the guild and see if "fits"

The Eurpoean guilds would laugh at the ACGG...unfortunately, absolutely no comparison except in name.

A few of us tried for years make it a meaningful guild...we were always voted down because most members are..let's face it...part timers, retirees loking for a tax write off, or looking for some sort of glorious write up .

It's not my intention to make a broad, encompassing brush stroke, but as Hubert Hecht used to say "That's the way what it is"

Having made this critique, I am very anal when the Guild's reputation is besmirched by rotten apples.

I have observed for years and still don't know about the guild. I think I agree with Duane that it doesn't seem to be anything like what I would expect from a European guild. I think that most may use it to increase their prices for services and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you use the guild for that then you should also be responsible to it and the guild should also be responsible to your customers. In other words, I think that if you use the guild to further your business then the guild should take some sort of disciplinary action if you betray that relationship, particularly when it involves something as inexpensive to produce as courtesy to a customer. But, this is only an observation from an outsider that has considered it in the past and is still considering. As for part timers and retirees, I've been 'smithing part time in one form or another for 30+ years and will be retiring and going full time in two years. I think I've procrastinated so long that I won't be able to uphold the level of quality demanded by the guild.

Clowdis, I agree with and applaud everything you say except the last statement about work quality. I spend about twice the time that a good pro takes to do most given jobs since I don't depend upon my production to buy groceries, but that extra 'contemplation' time often results in a better job. Since I refuse to be pressed for time, I can devote as much as necessary to do a good job.

Of course my hourly rate for a fairly-priced job has dropped rather dramatically(!) when compared to when I was working down at the nukie (rueful grin). But I ain't complaining since My Bride (only boss I have now, G) is a LOT better-looking and a LOT more pleasant to deal with than my old boss!

But all joking aside, I've learned more and improved the quality of my own work to a greater degree in the years since I retired than I ever did during my 'working' career. More resources for learning these days and more personal time to devote to the learning process and more communication with similar-minded folks all over the internet.

Duane, I appreciate the invitation and will take advantage of it at the first opportunity! I know I'll probably like most of the members since I assume they're fine folks too, much like the ACGG members I already call friends. I don't really care about being able to display the logo and claim the higher price & ego boost since I don't advertise and low production rate means I'm always having to turn work away, but I'd sure like to keep learning from the experts!
Regards, Joe

An "Individual Associate Membership" to the ACGG is $85 per year.

Joe,
How's it going? As I get older the thing that is getting shorter on me is my patience. I guess it has to do with being in the moldmaking and custom molding industry most of my career and nothing is fast enough or good enough. It becomes ingrained after a while! Hopefully I can get around that and get back to the time when I could spend all the time needed for a checkering or carving job. We'll know soon!

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

One things for sure, folks outside of the ACGG are not going to set policy for members.

may not "set" it, but sure as hell can influence it.

Hmmmmm----not as much as you think is all I am going to say about that.

Well...don't mean to imply that I'm a spokesman for the Guild...so having said that:

The Guild has become more interested in fundraising than in raising workmanship levels...and...that's the sad truth!

Evidence: The Guild is offering a silver medallion to commerate 25 years......yawn...

JD: It was never my intent to minimize the efforts of a part timer...Plenty of talent in the part time membership. Raising prices...well...look at Soverns...he was a bottom feeder with his $85.00 checkering jobs..I call that predatory pricing!

Ego: Here again, if the Guild keeps getting that "residual black eye" ....I think ego will fall flat.

Joe Steele, Reno is one of the cheapest places to fly to in the world! Come on out....be my guest at the banquet (Let's see you publicly turn that down)....(grin!)

Duane, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't care for the part-timers' work quality, it was just my feeble attempt at humor. As I recently PMed to a colleague who chastised me for saying you were wrong about the Mauser debate, I have the very greatest respect for both your professional ability and your personal decision to share your knowledge with the rest of us. I figure that anyone talented enough to do the things you do is also perceptive enough to give credit where it's due and obviously you do.

I personally don't like to see part-timers taking work away from the full-timers because of price but I also think that the client will generally get what he pays for. I don't usually work on bolt rifles since most smiths can do a fairly good job there, I prefer to do single shots or very occasionally a double. Seems that many clients have problems finding a good S/S smith, so I don't feel so bad about taking a few of those jobs.

Too bad the Guild isn't more into quality and innovation but I guess I can get more interested since it's $85 for the mag instead of $150, obviously I wuz asleep at the switch there. What about back issues? Available?
Regards, Joe

My invitation still stands..bring your bride along...how about it?

quote:

Raising prices...well...look at Soverns...he was a bottom feeder with his $85.00 checkering jobs..I call that predatory pricing!

From personal experience:
Bill thought his membership was worth an instant $1000 dollar raise on a project we had discussed before his acceptance.

That same project ended with me having a discussion with an ethics committee member.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:

From personal experience:
Bill thought his membership was worth an instant $1000 dollar raise on a project we had discussed before his acceptance.

That same project ended with me having a discussion with an ethics committee member.

That is too bad as it shows they value their position over the quality of their work.

I know other members who have started out pricing their work at the level of long term members who have spent years refining their skills and putting in the hours to get to the positions they are in then along comes the newbie and thinks because they have earned membership they have also earned the right to charge the same prices.

I honestly hope Bill Soverns gets things sorted out and keeps working at the craft. I think he has the ability if he can just maintain the proper mindset. The Guild and the custom gun business needs new blood.

Surviving in the custom gun trade has little to do with ACGG membership. As I have said before, there are easier ways to make a living.

As for the "they" or "The Guild" bandied about in the above posts, each member has his own position on quality, prices, business ethics and design style. The Guild only sets minimum standard for member acceptance.

I chuckle when I see someone advertising their new membership in the organization as I have always considered it a minimum for trade credentials and not a special benchmark.

Most of the questions about the organization can be answered by studying the website ACGG
Best,
Steve

wheni had more time and thought I could take my love for guns and get skilled at working on them, purely for my own pleasure not really for profit, I liked at the guild. joined as an associate and went to the annual show

my understanding was that the guild was created primarily to foster the sharing of valuable trade skills/methods and assist newand future gunsmiths. I do believe in this and thnk it should be the primary reason for the guild.

since gunsmithing doesn't require special licensing, and that wouldn't likely be controlled by a guild anyways I don't see how they could be expected to govern members activity. the only corrective action Rey could take would be expelling members.

the interesting thing about that membership is....the number of people that know about the guild, or even the "top gunsmiths" is VERY small. want proof of that, walk into a gunship and drop the name of a few gunsmiths that we know to be great. most of the time you'll get a blank stare.

so I think for a consumer, that knows about the guild, the benefit is knowing that peers reviewed the persons worked and agreed the quality warranted admission. I would hope that the bar is breing held high there.

I do believe that the very skilled, proven and establishedmakers are able to charge more. should they? by all means. just like any profession, you are paying for it for many reasons, name, particular style or innovation, timeliness, etc etc.

what a young ACGG member told me atthat show that I believe is true, is that wha hurts the profession is the gunsmiths that charge too little for their work. they don't charge enough to MAKE A LIVING at it. this hurts the trade as a whole, because the guys that are trying to do it full time struggle. clients don't want to pay them a fair wage when it is higher than they see elsewhere.

but how that can be controlled I have no idea. the ACGG though I think is a good group, if standards are kept and for the purposes I stated before. and I think that is what people should expect of them

I am going to apply for full membership this year!

With that said, I sent in my application in June and had a project completed along with another done earlier. Couldn't sleep after that, too much stress. When the project came back after the client had it, the stock was damaged in shipping. I was despondent. I looked at it long and hard, not wanting to do anything with it. After a while, I took it and completely re-finished it along with a completely new checkering job. Felt fairly good about it and after getting a call from a few full members, decided to reapply. Sent in my app again and have been shitting little green apples since then and not sleeping. It meeans that much to me: Acceptance is a personal accomplishment, period! I have no intention of raising my prices based on my pending acceptance.

As for the ethics committee, I have not seen anything done with past complaints, namely one man from Idaho who took me for a fool. The guy was talented, that had nothing to do with ethics. There are some full members who still praise the guy every chance they get. There was the question also of the charter member who supposedly did the metalwork on one of the annual projects that never, ever did a bit of metalwork his entire career. When I brought it up to them, they put me down for critisizing one of their "heroes"

'nuf said.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
JD Steele: I would personally invite you to attend a show. Get a "feel" for the guild and see if "fits"

The Eurpoean guilds would laugh at the ACGG...unfortunately, absolutely no comparison except in name.

A few of us tried for years make it a meaningful guild...we were always voted down because most members are..let's face it...part timers, retirees loking for a tax write off, or looking for some sort of glorious write up .

It's not my intention to make a broad, encompassing brush stroke, but as Hubert Hecht used to say "That's the way what it is"

Having made this critique, I am very anal when the Guild's reputation is besmirched by rotten apples.

Duane-----when you say "laugh" what exactly do you mean?

Nicely put Dago!

Jim, You've been coming to the show for many years, know what's there and the "minimum" level of acceptable quality needed to qualify and can rest easy (although you may not). I won't be there this year, but would be proud to vote for your membership! (and believe me, I'm not one who votes for all new candidates!)
Sorry I'm going to miss you instatement!

I've never been a "booster" and have always believed that the guys that want to be in the organization for the right reasons would be. The so-called "Regular Members" have hovered around 100 for a very long time, some coming, some going (now its some dying) and some of us remaining because it's the only game in town.
Best,
Steve

I should add that the discussion I had with the ethics committee member was a very positive one.

I think the ACCG is a very good organization, they have done a lot to promote custom guns and gunsmiths.

There are some incredibly talented, ethical people that belong to that organization, but like any organization, can have some bad apples.

Look at any profession and you will find those same bad apples.

I just can't understand why people get upset about posting bad experiences with gunsmiths. If it's the truth so be it. Let it be a warning to those who are not on the up and up. Those gunsmith's who are ethical, honest and do good work have nothing to worry about.

Funny thing is, my first project turned out fantastic, beautiful rifle, shoots great. Not perfect, but that was a vision flaw due to me being a little naive and not explaining exactly what I wanted. I'll keep that rifle forever and hand it down. I even provided a reference to the ACCG for this individual. But something happened and everything changed, life happens.

I have come to find out that this same gunsmith has had many problems with other customers, mentors, gunsmiths, and the general public. You are what you repeatedly do, this gunsmith has repeatedly had problems with many people.

There is a reason he is no longer a Guild member and rightfully so.

But in no way am I disappointed in my dealings with the ACCG.

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
One things for sure, folks outside of the ACGG are not going to set policy for members.
If any client of an ACGG member has a verifiable business problem with an ACGG 'Regular Member' that client can file a complaint with the ACGG Ethics committee.
Both sides of the issue will be investigated and the Ethics committee will make a recommendation based on its findings. I believe it is up to the BOD to act on the recommendation.
In my opinion, the biggest problem has been clients being reluctant to file a complaint.
I have been a regular member of the ACGG for more than 20 years (so long I can't recall!) and am a Life Member as of last year.
Best,
Steve

So...Steve, ol boy...when is the last time any "good old boys" organization in history has even cleaned up their own act without outside influence and pressure...Hmmmm?

Duane and Steve, The problems pointed out here about the ACGC are not uncommon for organizations that are first about promoting themselves - rather than their product.
The Alaska Professional Hunters Association is another. It has it's good points and many great members but when it comes to enforcing any ethics complaints against it's members it is toothless.

I am sure there are answers out there and would love to hear from anyone with experience in the area. What we all need is something like the ole East African Professional Hunters Assoc.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
One things for sure, folks outside of the ACGG are not going to set policy for members.
If any client of an ACGG member has a verifiable business problem with an ACGG 'Regular Member' that client can file a complaint with the ACGG Ethics committee.
Both sides of the issue will be investigated and the Ethics committee will make a recommendation based on its findings. I believe it is up to the BOD to act on the recommendation.
In my opinion, the biggest problem has been clients being reluctant to file a complaint.
I have been a regular member of the ACGG for more than 20 years (so long I can't recall!) and am a Life Member as of last year.
Best,
Steve

So...Steve, ol boy...when is the last time any "good old boys" organization in history has even cleaned up their own act without outside influence and pressure...Hmmmm?

Duane---am up here in Trinidad and discussed this thread with Chuck earlier today and he does not share your opinion. I will make it a point to discuss this with you at the Show if you are going to be there.

BH, if you're disagreeing with Duane about outside influence changing an org, I can offer some input.

To make any change, you hafta make a stink. Until The Powers That Be can see that others are scoffing at them and that their actions really suck, they'll keep doing the same things in the same way 'cause that's the way they get their jollies.

Now, you can make this stink from inside the org or from outside, but if the stink doesn't smell bad enough then the org won't change. IMO it mainly depends upon the org's focus. If they rely upon financing from outside such as patrons who pay commissions to members (craftsmen, guides, etc) then you have a hope. But if they are merely an org for enthusiasts (such as the ASSRA) then IMO you're barking up the wrong tree unless you join and basically take over the org.

I've tried it both ways. As long as the org is a small puddle run by folks who wanta believe they're big frogs, they'll resist any changes 'cause that's the way they maintain their power base and ego. If the puddle gets any larger then they fear that they may lose their 'important' position in the hierarchy, so they resist all changes. If you want that type of org to change then IMO you need to become one of the frogs.

It is VERY VERY TRUE that an org won't change unless one of its wheels squeaks loudly enough to attract attention. The squeaky wheel can be caused by 'outside agitators' or members, but it's gotta squeak pretty loud and long for any change to come about.

I didn't want to become a frog and was tired of squeaking so I left the puddle. If I like an org then I join but I don't try to change anything any more. If I don't like it then I don't join, life's too short. The 'Powers' always have the org's power firmly in their hands and want to keep it so they usually won't change without a stink of some sort.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
BH, if you're disagreeing with Duane about outside influence changing an org, I can offer some input.

To make any change, you hafta make a stink. Until The Powers That Be can see that others are scoffing at them and that their actions really suck, they'll keep doing the same things in the same way 'cause that's the way they get their jollies.

Now, you can make this stink from inside the org or from outside, but if the stink doesn't smell bad enough then the org won't change. IMO it mainly depends upon the org's focus. If they rely upon financing from outside such as patrons who pay commissions to members (craftsmen, guides, etc) then you have a hope. But if they are merely an org for enthusiasts (such as the ASSRA) then IMO you're barking up the wrong tree unless you join and basically take over the org.

I've tried it both ways. As long as the org is a small puddle run by folks who wanta believe they're big frogs, they'll resist any changes 'cause that's the way they maintain their power base and ego. If the puddle gets any larger then they fear that they may lose their 'important' position in the hierarchy, so they resist all changes. If you want that type of org to change then IMO you need to become one of the frogs.

It is VERY VERY TRUE that an org won't change unless one of its wheels squeaks loudly enough to attract attention. The squeaky wheel can be caused by 'outside agitators' or members, but it's gotta squeak pretty loud and long for any change to come about.

I didn't want to become a frog and was tired of squeaking so I left the puddle. If I like an org then I join but I don't try to change anything any more. If I don't like it then I don't join, life's too short. The 'Powers' always have the org's power firmly in their hands and want to keep it so they usually won't change without a stink of some sort.
Regards, Joe

Found out today there is mr\ore to this story but will not repeat it here. If the person in question wants to elaborate it is up to him.

quote:

I just can't understand why people get upset about posting bad experiences with gunsmiths. If it's the truth so be it. Let it be a warning to those who are not on the up and up. Those gunsmith's who are ethical, honest and do good work have nothing to worry about.

I suggest also filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau so potential customers that are not members of this forum have a chance to make an informed decision also.

Twice in my life, I have entered into business arrangements with businesses after doing web searches, BBB searches and asking locals only to later find they had severe customer service problems. Had reports been made to the BBB, I would not have lost the money or had the aggravation.

Other times, the only reason I did not do business individuals was because of the information I found at the BBB.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
One things for sure, folks outside of the ACGG are not going to set policy for members.
If any client of an ACGG member has a verifiable business problem with an ACGG 'Regular Member' that client can file a complaint with the ACGG Ethics committee.
Both sides of the issue will be investigated and the Ethics committee will make a recommendation based on its findings. I believe it is up to the BOD to act on the recommendation.
In my opinion, the biggest problem has been clients being reluctant to file a complaint.
I have been a regular member of the ACGG for more than 20 years (so long I can't recall!) and am a Life Member as of last year.
Best,
Steve

So...Steve, ol boy...when is the last time any "good old boys" organization in history has even cleaned up their own act without outside influence and pressure...Hmmmm?

Duane---am up here in Trinidad and discussed this thread with Chuck earlier today and he does not share your opinion. I will make it a point to discuss this with you at the Show if you are going to be there.

My name is Duane Wiebe..Do you have a real name? and yes...I'll be at the show...seeya....who's Chuck earlier?

My experience would force me to conclude that any organization such as teachers, lawyers, doctors, congress members will stonewall any efforts to attack members. The group exists to further the interests of the members and to protect the members. As an extreme case consider the ethics committees of congress. When I dared suggest that an organization to which I belonged have an ethics committee made up of non-members belonging to a different work group I was fortunate to escape unscathed.

quote:

The group exists to further the interests of the members and to protect the members

Yep.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Too bad the Guild isn't more into quality and innovation but I guess I can get more interested since it's $85 for the mag instead of $150, obviously I wuz asleep at the switch there. What about back issues? Available?
Regards, Joe

Joe, Back issues are available and well worth buying I managed to get a full set, even if a few issues were photo copies....Kiwi