Just saw this lovely old gun that someone butchered.Sauer

I really wonder why people do this kind of thing?

Because they can!

It seems to me that majority of the buggering of older rifles has to do with scope mounting...

This one looks like a gunsmith job however... How many gunsmiths would send a paying customer packing if he brought in a fine rifle for scope mounts???

Mehar....maybe you should buy them all so people can't do that.

Likely because they got it for next to nothing, didn't realize or particularly care that it might have collector value. They likely regarded it as a tool, one that needed "improvement".

Just think of all the pruists out there that hate us for turning "collector" rifles like G33/40's & matching K98's into fine customs.

quote:

Originally posted by DeBee:
It seems to me that majority of the buggering of older rifles has to do with scope mounting...

Exactly! I know where two nice BRNO square bridge guns are that have been bunked up.

One has a full rib, double set triggers and a butter-knife bolt handle... complete with two screw holes through each bridge. No doubt for a $5.00 weaver base!

Looks like they just added a scope mount and a butt pad? Ok, I'll admit I would rather see a G&H side mount on it, and the butt pad needs replacing. Remember guys, some of these things had scopes mounted on them occasionally even pre-war.

OK, the scope mount is ugly. Perhaps something more in keeping with the period would have been better.

While this is a nice old Sauer, I don't quite understand your flustration. It appears to me that someone simply made it more user friendly by adding a recoil pad and altering it for scope use. I wonder if 80 years from now (assuming we will be able to own firearms) someone won't express your same view over similar user mods made to a current production firearm. I believe that honest collecter grade pieces should be cherished and left as made. User guns need to be looked at in a different light. I don't mind "altering" my user guns, although I try to find "period" mounts, scopes and accessories when I do. I know my collection of Savage 23's will baffle someone when they are sold after my death. I have converted the safety to lefthand operation. Simple to do by reversing it and filing off a bit of metal. But they work fine for me and that is what counts. People modify new and nonrare products all the time. Now, that said, I could kick my a$$ for having a $50.00 Colt 1911 made into a target pistol in my younger days. Now much older and wiser (ok 1 out of 2 isn't bad) I now know that it is a Navy marked gun produced in 1912, worth about $3-5000 if I hadn't had it changed. However at the time, I didn't have the resources available today to instantly know it's value and I did need a hardball gun and the Navy Small Arms Unit in San Diego (Charley Fraizer and Don McCoy) made me a real nice one out of it in 1969. Wonder what Doug Turnbull will charge to restore it?

mehulkamdar

Yes I understand your frustration.
About 25 years ago had a customer bring in a Sauer like that on the had been a 7x57. Said he wanted it put back into shape.

The rest of the story. He did not like the 7x57 so had another gunsmith rechamber it to a 7mm Rem Mag. The guy did a so so job of stamping the caliber with 3/16" stamps. Turns out some one talked to the customer and said something about the vaule of the gun. The customer ran down to the gunsmith to get his gun back. However the rechamber work had all ready been done, luckly ?? the scope mount work had not been started yet.

What we told the customer is that he had ruined the vaule of the rifle and asked him what it cost for the work.

THEN asked him was it fun burning several hundred dollars.

Well never say the customer again but that was not a big loss.

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

A 6X24 with A/O and target knobs and she'll be ready for the woods. Maybe a nylon camo sling if'n there's enough $$ left over from the scope purchase.

Honestly, I bet the guy that owned this rifle didn't care what you think of him or the gun

Terry

Mehul, most of the time it involves scopes, buttpads and customers who don't know any better. Still happens all the time. I was in a shop not too long ago, saw an early Brno full stock on the smith's rack to be D&T for a scope base. The smith wouldn't give me the customer's phone number so I could offer to trade him a new bolt rifle with scope mount for his Brno, he wanted the fee to D&T. I see alot of butchered Brnos & vintage Mausers, use them for donor guns for custom rifles if they can be salvaged.

When this really bugs me is when I'm looking for an unmolested example.

Like the Brno M21h or 22f. Seems everytime I find one someone has "improved" it.

I just can't understand why everyone thinks you HAVE to have a recoil pad on a .30-06 class cartridge????

I don't like to see it either but at least it transfers a little more value to the ones that aren't modified.

I think people just don't realize they are affecting the value of a collectable item.

I tend to agree with Thaine. Since I am not in the "fine old gun" market or business, any rifle can be modified to suit my needs and wants without more than a brief moments hesitation. That hesitation is to see if I can sell it to get enough $$$ for what I want to have, or would it be cheaper/better to modify. Believe me, I understand the art and history thing, but only to a point, and I certainly do have rifles that were built for over $5000. I think a rifle is a useful and beautiful tool only if it is such to the owner.

I, for one, do not understand the pre-64 model 70 thing. They were arguably the best rifle FOR THEIR TIME but are inferior to the new Classic M70s in out of the box accuracy, metalurgy, gas handling, cartridge handling and, in my opinion, looks yet people covet them highly. They are just old guns to me, so I would not hesitate to modify one unless, as I said above, I could sell it and get what I needed.

quote:

How many gunsmiths would send a paying customer packing if he brought in a fine rifle for scope mounts???

That is the problem. We once had a guy bring in a M-12 Black Diamond trap gun. This was in the mid 80's and the gun had consiterable value. It was a very-very nice gun. Well this guy wanted the barrel cut off to 18" and would not take no for an answer. He simply did not care that he was ruining an expensive collector's item. He would not take a modern riot gun. He wanted his gun mutilated, end of story. I had to leave the room. The gunsmith gave him a price, did the dirty deed, and the moron was happy. You just have to shake your head and move on.

One of the nice things about freedom is that we can each march to the beat of our own drummer. It would surely be a worse world for us all if we had a strictly enforced moral code and set of laws that kept everyone from modifying any original gun, in any way, for any reason, either when new or at anytime in the future!

Usually, any variation of any gun, modified or unmodified, is still available under this current system. One just has to pay the price for the version they want at the time.

I run into the same thing alll the time in the car field. People on the Porsche website bitch at me because I put a 475-horse Pontiac engine in my Porsche. People who like Lotus used to crab when they found I had a Cosworth Ford engine in my Lotus. I just used to tell them the same thing. They can buy their own Porsche, Lotus, whatever, and keep it bone-stock so it can end up in a museum when their widow sells it, if they want. Personally, I want to drive mine, and I'll modify it to run like I want, so long as I can afford it.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Mehar....maybe you should buy them all so people can't do that.

Vapodog,

I'd gladly do that if I saw any on sale. The problem is that I only see new guns at the stores around here. If you come to know of any unmangled specimens, do let me know.

Personally, I feel sorry for the guy who has to sell this rifle in this condition. If only it were in it's original shape, he would realise a much better price. As far as I am concerned, I'll never sell any gun that I buy anymore. Selling them would be left to whoever gets them from me after I die.

Cheers, gentlemen!

Mehul,

I understand what you are saying about collectability of certain rifles. In my family, there is one rifle that at one time belonged to my Great Grandfather and it now resides with my Dad. It just loves to shoot flyers on the first round and we've looked into getting a new stock for it and having it bedded to correct that. But, then after realizing that this was an unmolested Pre-64 Model 70 that was made in 1948, we decided to leave it alone - that it was better off as an heirloom and worth a lot more as is! Someday I will inherit this rifle that I shot my first deer with so many years ago and someday I hope my great grandson shoots his first deer with it too. I further hope that this rifle stays in the family for generations in original condition. They just don't make 'em like that anymore!

Tex

There is a 1910 Mexican mauser 257 robert rifle on gunbroker or auction arms right now, though its not a real collector item its a good find . It is have way nicely done but The Scope holes are drilled in the wrong place on the front ring. The rear front hole is drilled right through the lug "meat area". Jack Belk told me you want that hole to be forward of the "lug meat", and in the lug recess.
http://photos.imageevent.com/lucky/wood1/large/P6072985.JPG

One feature that tends to be forgotten when referenced to firearms:

#1 First they must work, and function.

Collector guns that don't work or work well just don't interest me, I have zero interst in wall hangers and safe queens.

I am not foolish enough to start carving up Wild Bill Cody's rifle or a true historic or collectable firearm. But I saw a a Walker Colt recently for sale, over 50K for a rusted POS. It had been buried since 1870 by the looks of it, way past any hope of salvaging, but the engraving was correct from the correct ranger in one of the early Texas Ranger units. I have scrap metal in my barn that is better condition. I wouldn't have given the guy $500 for it much less $50,000.

I'll give some of the preserver that don't fiddle with firearms a thought. If it doesn't work and unless you have papers to document what you think its worth, when you die and your widow or kids get it, its a: broken gun=junk. And the next step is scrap metal and parts bin.

I am not advocationg to rush off and start butchering old firearms. I actually just got finished last Xmas a Colt 1911 with a serail number under 8000 it was a full restoration, it took me almost 5 years, over 2 1/2 of that was serious effort, it took a long time to find the correct parts and I was butt picky. Before I started it was worth very little, and had mismatched parts, and paper plates at 10-15 yds was the best it would shoot. It now shoots better than I do, but it is capable of national match accuracy in a Ransom Rest. I put everything back on with original or new made to match original parts, the value went up at least 10 fold. Yes it would be worth twice that if it was stock original, but it wasn't and hadn't been in 50 years or better.

Bottom line common sense prevails on older rifles, but if its broken or screwed up fix it ( don't Bubba smith ) and put it back into use, it is a firearm and that is first priority, beauty and collectability are nice to haves. If your truck has a scratch on the fender you can still go hunting, if it won't start, your working on your truck not hunting.

Actually, I have a great need to shoot all my rifles. I currently have a Bruno 21 and it will only cost $10,000 to keep me from shooting it. I may even add a new pad to it and I was thinking of a peep------- BUT! I have found that with a good smith the add-ons do not distract and very ofter can be reversed to original condition. I have a Winchester 71 450 Alaskan which could go back to .348 at any time. I may never touch my Westly Richards but it has already had the above mentioned changes made. They were done by Griffin and Howe and in my opinion, enhanced the rifle as opposed to detract. There are of course the "poor craftsmanship" changes like drilling holes out of alignment and I agree these are a terrible mistake to make on a great rifle but SHI*T HAPPENS and even really fine artisans will make mistakes. I picked up a 450 x2 American I had been waiting on for two years and found a 1/2 inch scratch on the stock. Apparently someone bumped something against it and marked it. I didn't have the heart the give it back to the stockmaker {YET} but that stuff happens and it is best to live with it and move on.
Frustration is a matter of what individuals believe rifles should be, look like and how others should treat their own pieces of history.
Frank

quote:

It just loves to shoot flyers on the first round

Since when I hunt that is the round that really counts in my book, I would fix it, glass bedding or some gentle professional fixing would correct that. In its present condition it would be left at home ie: safe queen.

It too nice of a rifle to get left at home. It probably can be fixed and unless your selling it to a picky collector you will never know the work was done till you pull the trigger at check your target.

People that collect (hoarde and don't use) anything other than art work are a pain in the ass. I used to have a Winchester Model 61 in .22 magnum. Very useful gun. I would like to buy another but they are around $900 bucks because they are "collectable". The rifle is worth around $250 because it is functional. I wish the "collectors" would buy plastic replicas and hand them on the wall and leave the real guns to people who want to USE them. I have a friend that has one of EVERY pre-64 model 70 featherweight ever made other than the 9x57. He will without hesitation USE any one of them. They are all 100% original and most are 90 to 95% condition. He is the type of collector
that I respect.

i hate seeing holes drilled into the reciever of any bolt gun.

O E H Do you know ?Rob down here in Ferndale. He is a very extablished collector and just got a couple of featherweights that were never llisted and must have been made by the custom shop for someone very special.
Special guns for special people. SHOOT 'EM ALL!
Frank

One last thought the real credit on my Old Colt. Thanks goes to all the helped over the course of this build, and special thanks to Bill Adair who really made this happen.

Bill only works on "OLD" guns, if it was made after WWII he is not the guy to call. But if you want someone who can fix your engraving ( think he told me his library of factory marks and stamps is over 10,000 images), color case hardening, matches to original blueing, or fabrication or sourcing parts he can help.

I'm with others here who don't worry about what is done because I can't change it. I also can't fault folks for doing something to something they own. If I do I should just go buy one of my own. I actually think this rifle was modified quite tastefully and wouldn't mind owning one like it. I would have preferred a two piece mount myself, but really I recon that the one someone put on will no doubt work just fine.

I think sometimes we get a little carried away with worrying about collectible firearms. I have had folks criticize me for not putting Springfield actions back to full military rifles instead of using the action for something else. Actually when push comes to shove a lot of firearms have great history other than that of their original state. Who knows what this Mauser could tell us if it could talk?

I couldn't agree more. Especially about the '03's which were readily available when the "Great Ones" were abusing their rifles.
I am really glad someone chose to abuse this one.

As an interesting side note about leaving things in stock form, there are no WW2 fighters existing in unrestored form that I know of. So if anyone ever wanted to examine an operational example of a WW2 fighter they are out of luck.

schromf,

I am sure that the rifle in question would have worked extremely well as it was. If it was a dud then I doubt the owner would have wanted to put a pad on it. There is a case for tastefully modifying a military action and there are masters who have done this in a way that gives shivers of excitement to gun lovers everywhere, myself definitely included. We do see numbers of beautiful rifles made on Argentine Mauser actions, Springfields, Mexican Mausers and others here by several of the finest gunsmiths in the world who visit from time to time and I doubt that anyone has any argument with that. Personally, I am among those who visit AR and other forums more for the pictures of these guns and for the advice offered by these experts than for anything else. That said, it would be as sad to see one of those guns customised by some of the expert gunsmiths here as it to see what was done to this Sauer in my eye. And I am glad that there are experienced members who agree with my views and who have offered their own expert voices in support.

It is the mangling of otherwise good guns as is definitely the case here that is sad to my mind. I personally believe that all guns are meant to be used - I cannot afford the megabucks master creations that many members here have, but, if I could, I would very happily shoot and hunt with them. And, if a nice looking gun didn't shoot well, I am sure that there are many very skilled gunsmiths who could make them shoot while keeping the original form and design. When the master gunsmiths who post here build their rifles in a certain way, they have a reason for it and I doubt that anyone would slap on a pad like was done to this old rifle after spending megabucks on it.

As I have said earlier, I feel sorry for whoever modified this fine old rifle because it would have been worth a whole lot more than it is at the moment had it been left as it was when he got it. I hope that he got his money's worth in pleasure out of hunting with it because he has definitely lost money because of the modofications that he made to it.

Good hunting!

Mehulkamdar,

It is shame that somebody buggered up the old rifle, but if the price reflected it, it would be a neat project to clean up. Definately the pad would go, put on a new properly fitted pigskin, get rid of the white spacer while your at it.

I would really want to see the reciever to decide what to do about those scope mounts. If it wasn't real screwed up I would start looking for a set of scope mounts and rings first. If I couldn't find any I would start with a high Quality Rings set and either remake the bases or machine them from scratch.


Rifles like this are actually part of the chase, this would be a real neat project rifle. The dollars to put this back into shape would be worth it it you bought into it right.

quote:

quote:
It just loves to shoot flyers on the first round


Since when I hunt that is the round that really counts in my book, I would fix it, glass bedding or some gentle professional fixing would correct that. In its present condition it would be left at home ie: safe queen.

It too nice of a rifle to get left at home. It probably can be fixed and unless your selling it to a picky collector you will never know the work was done till you pull the trigger at check your target.

It is indeed a very nice rifle; a testament to the craftsman ship of the era. However, since Dad and I already have a big ass safe full of lots of other rifles to choose from, I asked him not to tinker with this particular one. In its current condition, it will still kill whitetail deer and that's good enough for me. And since this rifle has a lot of sentimental value to us, it will remain as is and may just end up as a...a...safe queen.

Now ordinarily, I'd agree with you that rifle that's not 100% up to par should be fixed and I do respect your opinion. But in this particular case, NO!

A lot of those old guns were designed before scopes and recoil pads were mainstream. I prefer them with the pads and mounts for scopes.

To each his own.

Just collecting a gun because it's "nice" is not a high use of the gun.

I actually think I have the right scope mount for that rifle. At least the front I would need to check the rear. Its a solder on see through base. The base is contoured to match the octagon fairly thin with a oval see through aboce that and then the rings.

Seems like it was for a less than 1" tube. I will need to dig trough my old ziess scope pieces, to check this out.

Edit: Tex21,

I can understand the sentimental and respect it, I have very few of my fathers rifles left after a robbery years ago, the remaining although functional are very well cared for and unfortunately elevated to don't fiddle with, almost safe queens. I still take them to the range but I don't hard hunt them, to me they are irreplaceable, and its not about monitary considerations.

You know sometimes the crowns of rifles get damaged, which can cause a flier like that. Have you inspected that for any damage? it might just need to polish the crown a little to fix that. Doesn't sound like it will get that rifle out of safe queen status though and I respect that and the reasons behind it.

The above is the front ring on a 22F that has a #6 & #8 hole drilled and tapped out of line by someone. I bought it as is for a shooter and it's at the smiths to make mount base that will use the existing holes. At the moment the plan is to buy Weaver gunsmith base stock and machine the bottom to fit.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
A lot of those old guns were designed before scopes and recoil pads were mainstream. I prefer them with the pads and mounts for scopes.

To each his own.

Just collecting a gun because it's "nice" is not a high use of the gun.

The problem is also that a lot of "collector's" are not true collectors anyway. They are speculators who are more interested in the "value" of a gun than in what it represents in the evolution of the genre. In plain English, that means they are in it for the bucks!

When I first became interested in collecting, I tried to get all the Mannlicher/Steyrs, Mannlicher/Schoenauers, Commercial Mausers, High Grade English magazine rifles, and double rifles of any make, that I could find. Why? Because I wanted to experience the sorts of rifles that opened the African & Indiqan continentys to the European influences. To experience them, I often had to modify them so the actually WORKED for ME.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
A lot of those old guns were designed before scopes and recoil pads were mainstream. I prefer them with the pads and mounts for scopes.

To each his own.

Just collecting a gun because it's "nice" is not a high use of the gun.

I agree with Savage 99....

The problem is also that a lot of "collector's" are not true collectors anyway. They are speculators who are more interested in the "value" of a gun in dollars/euros than in what it represents in the evolution of the genre. In plain English, that means they are in it for the bucks but like to add some legitimacy to their hoard by calling it a "collection"!

When I first became interested in collecting, I tried to get all the Mannlicher/Steyrs, Mannlicher/Schoenauers, Commercial Mausers, High Grade English magazine rifles, and double rifles of any make, that I could find. Why? Because I wanted to experience the sorts of rifles that opened the African continent & Indian sub-continent to the European sportsman's and farmer's influences.

To experience them, I often had to modify them so they actually WORKED for ME. I had an income which, after all expenses were paid each month, left me with approximately 2,300 pounds-sterling per month of disposable "pocket-change". As Mannlicher/Schoenauers were selling at auction in GB for as little as 5-Guineas (1 Guinea= 1 Pound & 1 Shilling) at the time (those were mainly ones done-up by Gibbs of Bristol), I bought lots of them, and SHOT them all. Then I would pick the ones that really performed well in MY hands, and would sell the rest for approximately what I had in the purchase, permits, freight, duty and VAT. I never tried to profit from ANY of them.

I learned things about the rifles (and the history of their development) that way that no speculator-cum-collector who amasses wall-hangers will ever know.

As any real collector of sporting firearms, particularly British sporting firearms, knows, even the manufacturers seldom turned out two in a row which were exactly alike in all their mechanical details. So even they couldn't say that one particular configuration was the RIGHT configuration. They built what would keep their customers happy and, in some cases, alive.

The bottom line is, the purpose of any rifle is to make the owner happy, whether that is by saving his life, increasing his bag, turning a profit, or whatever. But his rifles are HIS rifles. So long as he commits no crimes with them, what makes HIM happy is what HE should do with them. And, it really isn't anyone else's position to criticize his ethics in so doing.