how do these barrels rate compared to others

As good or better than most.

Excellent in my opinion. I have been useing them for quite a few years now.

I think LW have the best Chrome Moly barrels, and at a discount price.

I don't own any of their Stainless barrels, but I read on other forums that they are harder to get the chamber smooth, but last longer.

I would venture that most barrels on the market today are fine for their intended use, either hunting, target, civilian use, etc., but can say over more than four decades of long range match shooting, have never seen a LW barrel being used?? Douglas, Shilen, some Hart(mostly bench shooters, low rate of fire) but many, many Krieger's being used. Reason?? They deliver the best accuracy, longer service, for those shooters capable of producing high scores. Granted price much higher for the Krieger grade barrels(there are others equal to Krieger)but a quality rifle is usually an item owned/used for a fairly long period of time and the barrel is kind of like the heart of the rifle. Good luck with your selection of barrels.

quote:

I read on other forums that they are harder to get the chamber smooth

I always use "Tap Magic" when chambering SS barrels, anybodys barrel. always get a VERY smooth chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by yzm19:
how do these barrels rate compared to others

They're a hell of a value for the price. I love 6.5x55. Wouldn't take for it.

I think this topic warrants a little more in depth discussion from you guys who know about this. I'll tell you what I think I know, and hopefully you guys will correct me, or add your knowledge.

I have four LW barrels - projects, but unfortunately I have none completed. Two are the pre-finished & chambered/threaded barrels for Mausers in 8x57. The other two are turned SS blanks in 6.5 and 7 mm. As you probably know, these barrels are different "programs" by LW, and priced differently. One "program" is CIP specs,and the other is SAAMI specs.

Anyway, my main notion about LW barrels, compared to other barrels, from the USA, such as Shilen, Lilja, Douglas, PacNor, etc., excluding Kreiger, is that the LW barrels have a grove depth which is a few thousands greater. I don't know this to be fact, but I think it is so.

I know that most of the barrels made in the USA have very shallow groves, excluding Kreiger which I don't know about. This is a mfg technique to save on tooling costs, since the carbide buttons will last longer. Also, I believe the steel used by most USA mfgs is softer, again to save on tooling costs, since they can use the button longer.

I think that LW barrels are different in that respect, but I don't know for sure. I think their groves are deeper, and their steel is tougher

Concerning the notion that competitions are won with certain barrels - pick one - I think this is almost meaningless when considering a sporter barrel. A barrel maker can make a precise barrel with very shallow groves, which could win a match or two, before it is shot out. No problem to a avid competitor, just change to a fresh barrel. So, it means nothing to me that LW barrels are not known to win matches. Maybe that's a good thing?

I want to read your thoughts and knowledge on this.

Thanks,
KB

Woody and the gang over in Cummins GA. have a top notch operation. They have the latest CNC equiptment. More importantly they have a quality manufacturing attitude that they are making a customer's barrel, not just carrying a piece of steel across the plant.

Their lapping machine maps the bore before the proceedure and then based on that, the lapping machine adjusts as it moves up and down the bore.

Anyone can pick up the phone and call Woody. After that conversation you'll realize that they do make a quality product.

I own 2 of them and have 2 more on order.

A few years ago, I rebarreled a Ruger VT with a LW .308 SS match bull barrel. Here are some of the 100 m 5-shot groups it statted shooting after I developped its petload :

As for the Krieger barrels being at the top of the pile in rifle matches is a definite sign of quality barrel in terms of accuracy ability as well as "long life." I am not referring to bench rest shooters, rather long range prone/sling/micrometer sight/600-1000 yard type shooting. Cost is significant for any barrels and when such a match shooter may well fire over 3000 rounds a year or more, life and continuous delivery of accuracy is important. Krieger barrels are cut rifled barrels, not button/swaged type rifling. A button barrel/rifling is produced by deforming metal(forcing button down bore while turning, etc.) cut rifling is produced by removing metal by a cutting tool and many believe the cut rifle barrel delivers better performance. I happen to believe it does give an advantage and so do many other top level shooters, but Douglas(button type) wins matches as well and is a very popular barrel with both customers and mfg's buying Douglas blanks and stamping their name on the side. Granted, a hunter/sporting rifle will never see the use/abuse/wear and tear, that a competitor will see, but believe you will find many quality rifle builders, both sporting and match grade will highly suggest Krieger barrels. I have used them for several years, others as well, they work and last longer than any others and that is usually the case. Good Luck.

Support your own country's barrel makers!

-

Here is a discussion of Lothar Walther barrels:
http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41789&...light=lothar+walther

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
A few years ago, I rebarreled a Ruger VT with a LW .308 SS match bull barrel. Here are some of the 100 m 5-shot groups it statted shooting after I developped its petload :

Are you sure they are groups from a WL? maybe some CRB xpurt can explain how to really tell the difference?
What I like about LW,they use advanced barrel materials and machining techniques to compliment them,if thats too hard to accept or learn for others,then it can be their own loss.

Wonder what those advanced materials and techniques would be??? I am sure the Europeans have many trade secrets that we in the States have never heard of before and if by chance you would know these special ingredients for barrel making, educate the group so we may not continue using inferior products. Again, good luck.

Lothar Walther Barrel Material

Types Of Stainless

Stainless production process for the technically minded: HERE

I suppose inferior is a relative term, many get by fine on barrels that they dont really know or care too much what they are made of.
Its possible for me to be happy with an average factory barreled m70, but I also like to see people strive to improve and produce barrels and actions from the latest advanced alloy steels.
If not for ideals,experiment,research and development, improvements would not take place.
Out of interest,there is also a new titanium alloy Ti-5553 (Ti-5Al-5V-5Mo-3Cr) now preferred over Ti-6Al-4V. it is more difficult to machine than traditional Ti alloys, tooling/coating companies are working on that challenge.

KB,
I wouldn't want deep grooves. On a quick twist barrel especially. It would engrave the bullet a lot and might encourage one to shred a jacket and come apart. All the lands and grooves do is make the bullet twist. A typical 243 barrel has a bore diameter of 237 which leaves the grooves .003 deep. To make a deeper grove would allow the 243 bullet to wobble in the barrel or if you had a tighter bore to get the deeper grooves, you may have a pressure problem. I doubt that 90% of all custom barrels get worn out in a hunting rifle.
Most USA made custom barrels are in the 28-32 Rockwell range. If you went to say 38 Rockwell, tooling would really suffer and prices would really climb. If you are not wearing out a barrel, why ask for something that hard?
We shoot our BR barrels at about 70,000psi and it really blasts the throats of the barrel. That is why we change about every 1000 rounds approx.
Rusty, do you know how LW's lapping machine works? When you say it maps a barrels bore and adjusts to it. I may be a little behind on current tech.
Butch

quote:

It would engrave the bullet a lot and might encourage one to shred a jacket and come apart.

That would have to be some very poor quality cheap ass bullets indeed!

Butch just wondering how many Lother Walter barrels have you personaly did any machine work on chambering,threading ETC?

I have spent a lot of time in the past working with Shilen barrels & they seemed to want to tear rather than machine smoothly. Have they improved their steels machinability any?

Well Dakota uses LW barrels.I have two 76`s ,a 280 and a 06.Both are Hummers.Must be somthing too them.

Doug,
I think you will find that Krieger, Lilja, Shilen, Hart, and others get the majority of their steel from Crucible and it is spec'd the same.
The only 2 LW 50 barrels that I chambered weren't a problem to chamber, I just had to order .0004 larger bushings than I have ever used in the past. They were 6mm barrels and were .2382 bore diameter.
Doug, they are probably ok for a hunting rifle, but aren't a competitive rifle barrel. I don't know of any BR short range, long range, or Fclass shooters doing well with them. I think that Krieger has a strangle hold on the competitive scene at the present.
Back again to the jacket problem with deep grooves, I was speaking of the Match bullets. All have thin jackets that I have seen. Most hunting bullets don't have thin jackets.
Butch

Woodjack,
Here's the "beast" :

Originally, a shot-out .22-250 that I rebarreled in .308. With 168MK /N 140/ 41.5, it's best 5-shot group has been .14 MOA so far

Andre,
If your twist is 1/12, and it probably is, might give the Sierra 175MK's a try and also switch to 4064 with similar loading give or take a grain or two. You did not state the range/distance for your groups, perhaps 100 meters?, but the above bullet/powder combo has proven to be very good indeed over a period of time. You never know for sure, but might want to give it a try. The 168's are generally not viewed as the best bullet to use at longer ranges than say, 4-600, but do work well at shorter ranges. In any event, very nice groups with your rifle/load combo.

Twist is 1-10" and, at 100 meters, the 175 MK shoots the same. Unfortunately, I've no access to longer range, so I'll never know wich one is best at long distance.

LW's are the only barrels I have used for about the last 10 or 15 years? I wouldn't use anything else if I'm buying the barrel...The bottom line is they are the most accurate barrels without exception that I have ever used since Boots Obermyer quit producing barrels for us masses.

Hello Atkinson,
I have Obermeyer's and they are a fine barrel, but believe Krieger is equally good. I have an Obermeyer in "storage" but if you can not readily source the barrels, not much good is it?? Try a Krieger and believe you will be very much pleased with performance, smoothness of bore, and life of barrel as well.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
Woodjack,
Here's the "beast" :
[IMG]
Originally, a shot-out .22-250 that I rebarreled in .308. With 168MK /N 140/ 41.5, it's best 5-shot group has been .14 MOA so far[QUOTE]

your LW Buttoned really "cuts" the mustard!

I have never seen a LW barrel on the centerfire benchrest circuit. The dominant barrels in that competition today are Kreiger, Shilen, Hart and a few others, but no LW's.
For whatever that's worth in answer to the original question.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by dsiteman:
Hello Atkinson,
I have Obermeyer's and they are a fine barrel, but believe Krieger is equally good. I have an Obermeyer in "storage" but if you can not readily source the barrels, not much good is it?? Try a Krieger and believe you will be very much pleased with performance, smoothness of bore, and life of barrel as well.

Why would someone spend more on a barrel when the barrel they have been using has proven more than minimally acceptible? There is a practical limit on a hunting rifle unlike benchrest.

quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
I have never seen a LW barrel on the centerfire benchrest circuit. The dominant barrels in that competition today are Kreiger, Shilen, Hart and a few others, but no LW's.
For whatever that's worth in answer to the original question.

Don

That might have something to do with the age of benchrest competitors and accuracy rituals, more than the barrels.
Benchrest guys use Stainless Steel barrels, and I think most of the Lothar Walther fans at AR are into the Chrome Moly LW barrels.


1) In Stainless steel I have; Hart, Green Mountain, Addams and Bennet, Winchester, Remington, Ruger, Krieger, Shilen, and Lilja.

In SS, I consider the Hart, Krieger, Shilen, and Lilja so good it doesn't make any real difference.

From a gunsmithing point of view, the SS Shilen cuts like buddah.


2) In Chrome Moly I have; Krieger, Douglas, Lothar Walther, Addams and Bennet, Ruger, Remington, Winchester, Savage, Howa, Mossberg, Marlin, Uberti, Sako, Pac-Nor, Shilen and Bushmaster.

In CM, I consider Krieger, Douglas, and Lothar Walther so good it doesn't make any real difference.

Contrary to others around here, in CM, I have had bad experiences with Pac-Nor, Shilen, and Addams and Bennet.

quote:

Originally posted by dsiteman:
Hello Atkinson,
I have Obermeyer's and they are a fine barrel, but believe Krieger is equally good. I have an Obermeyer in "storage" but if you can not readily source the barrels, not much good is it?? Try a Krieger and believe you will be very much pleased with performance, smoothness of bore, and life of barrel as well.

FYI Obermeyer taught Krieger barrel making.Probably why Krieger does such a fine job.

Hello,
Well aware of the "teaching" history of Krieger/Obermeyer. Sure others were not aware of that, but point being if the barrel is not readily available, then not much of a factor to consider is it when deciding to purchase a barrel? Wish both were readily available and half price, but probably not going to happen.

I'm not a barrel buff; most of my rifles have carried factory tubes, with a few exceptions:

.223 shilen CM about a #4 or 5 countour, on a encore single shot. It's very smooth, very accurate, shooting in the .5 range w/ handloads. I had a #4 CM shilen in .338 wm. Again, very smooth bore, easy to clearn, sub-moa on a unmodified 700 action w/ glass stock. I also had a M777 w/ a shilen CM #4 in a .22-250; same excelent quality, it was a sub .5 MOA gun with 53 gr. Sierra match bullets.

Early this year I picked up a SS LW in .204 for my Sav. M12 SS. Screwed it on, headspaced it and tightened teh nut, then thrown in a B$C medalist stock (no bedding, as yet) and it unquestionably the most accurate gun I've ever owned. This gun averages sub 1/2" groups w/ nearly any decent load - 5 shot groups. I've run some test loads in the high .1s and .2s, but haven't shot those loads enough to know if they were flukes or the real deal.