The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Re: ER Shaw barrels?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Quote: Somehow I knew it would. | ||
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They shoot even better with Nosler's Hollow Point Boar Tail Custom Competitions. Sounds like an old Herter's ad, doesn't it?  | |||
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Quote: My experience has been ER Shaw is about half as expensive as a "premium" barrel installed. I've had Mausers, Springfields, and a Ruger 77 rebarreled by Shaw without complaint. Their barrels installed are still less than $200. I've never had reason for disappointment on the rifles I've had them on. Their contours for calibers over .30 are a bit husky for my tastes, and previously I've had some inordinately long waits for delivery. However, a friend of mine just had his Springfield rebarreled in 6 weeks. Perhaps that bottleneck has seen some improvement. GV | |||
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I've had E.R. Shaw do two VZ24's; one 338/06, and one 6mm Rem. They both shoot great (especially the 338/06) but I have had moderate copper fouling with the 6mm. Unless I were to rent a reamer (which I have never done) E.R. Shaw is less expensive than doing it myself on my own lathe. I think you will be satisifed with the work and barrel (for the price) but be prepared for a LONG wait. Jon | |||
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Quote: It's likely the primary reason most people rebarrel their rifles with Shaw barrels.........to take game. Quote: Bullshit. On both counts. While a factory rifle may only group 2-3 inches, it's not likely the limitation of the barrel. And the majority of Shaw barrels grouping 2-3 inches is a gross exaggeration. Quote: The reason I use Shaw barrels is because I don't find them mediocre. When I bed them they shoot to 1.25" or less. In someone else's hands, likely better. They cost less than $200 installed. One extra dollar spent, or a different name stamped on the barrel won't make the rifle more useful to me. Snobbery is OK in guns. I dabble in it myself. But this particular bent for bashing a useful and legitmate low-cost alternative product is getting old. Shaw barrels are the equivalent to the $35 Buehler safety vs. the $100 2-position safety vs. the $250 3-position safety. Or the $8 stamped steel buttplate vs. the $150 model. I own guns on each end of the above spectrum. Quality differences? Certainly. Enough to brand the lesser quality junk? Decidedly not. GV | |||
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Yes, and although the difference between a cheaper and a top-of-the-line barrel may seem quite significant - say, $150 vs. $250, a 40% saving after all - the price of chambering, installing, cutting to length, crowning, and squaring the action (because without this, it is not worth worrying about a new barrel anyway) stays the same for either barrel. Now we might be looking at a total price of, say, $400 vs. $500 - and all of a sudden we are only looking at 20% savings, and we still have the cheaper barrel. It is tough to find the $$$ to go custom, but saving $100 on the barrel because it is the first component to be chosen, may not be right way to go. - mike | |||
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I have a Shaw barrel in 338-06 and a Shilen in 7mm RM. The Shaw cost $350 to include blueprint and bluing the action. I can shoot 1" groups with various loads. It cost me about $650 for the Shilen and it shoots 1" groups or less with various. Just my experience with two different barrels | |||
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I would rather have a quality Mauser or Springfield action with a button rifled Shaw or A&B bbl than nearly any of the average factory rifles. And I have a few of them that cost pretty close to the same as an off the shelf rifle. That and the ability to choose your own configuration makes them quite appealing IMO. Too many builders of factory rifles just offer a handfull of chamberings and think that they will suit anybody. No thanks! I didnt like the 6 month wait for my Shaw bbl, but I like the finished product a lot.. | |||
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The decision of just what is "false economy" vs. "superfluous spending" is absolutely a personal one. RMK's assertion that Shaw's appeal is one of price is certainly more true than not. His assertion that this cheap price buys an inferior 2-3" grouping barrel is not. There are certainly enough users of those barrels to attest to that. If a well-heeled, discriminating sportsman were to embark on a custom rifle project......his choice for a barrel would likely not include ER Shaw. Neither would it include a Ruger factory take-off. Unless he could find a bicentennial edition in the desired chambering.......they're pretty spiffy. In specific instances, for my unique individual preferences of price and quality, ER Shaw has provided a satisfactory product. The barrel isn't a Lilja or a Hart. The guns I build around them aren't a Hensley or an Echols. I've managed to live with that for a few decades without remorse. I have investigated other avenues of achieving my standards of quality and budget. This was my particular solution. Others have found the same. YMMV GV | |||
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Quote: Well said Grandview. Again, I had a NEW Shaw bbl placed on an M-98 and with a bit of other shopping around I ended up with what I consider twice the firearm of a factory rifle for about the same cost and it suits my desires perfectly in every way. RMK can keep his used take off barrels and the crap they came from. Heres a breakdown of my shaw rifle costs. Pre-sporterized 8X57 M-98 $120.00 (bueller saftey and redfield rings & base included) Shaw bbl shipped, installed and rifle blued $220.00 Dual set triggers (used with floorplate) $80.00 Fajen stock (oberndorf style with Neider buttplate and gripcap on midway closeout) $40.00 Say what you will about shaw bbls, but I see remarks about a 20% savings on $250.00 barrels and the way this gun looks and shoots and I just sit back and grin.  Some guys like getting what they pay for, I like getting more. | |||
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I had Shaw rebarrel a .308 Win of mine for an article I wrote. They did the smithing on it. If I seat the bullets long, it shoots like a house afire. The best 3 shot group I have ever shot shooting sitting at 200 yards came with this gun: 3/8 of an inch. Obviously lucky. But today I shot 4 shots with a different load at 400 yards sitting with a sling and they plopped into 3 inches. One barrel is obviously a small sample, but if I wasn't building a target rifle, I would use them again. | |||
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ER Shaw,is nothing but a factory grade barrel. You could get a factory take off barrel and have the same thing. Some shoot some don't. ER Shaw even produces barrels for firearm companies under contract. The strongest statement I've heard about Shaw and Wilson,came from a gunsmith who I've used alot and does fine work. ER Shaw and Wilson are the only two barrels that the majority of gunsmithing schools won't allow students to use on project rifles. The reason being,is you're trying to learn how to build an accurate reliable rifle and by using Shaw,you're using a piece of shit that you won't know wether its the barrel or other aspects of workmanship or components that are causing problems. With a quality barrel,you then limit your accuracy problems to other aspects besides the barrel. In fact the only success stories I've heard with shaw barrels,comes from the AR 15 crowd. Most of these guys don't know shit about rifles and shoot garbage surplus ammo,because its fun and cheap. Yet they are always claiming benchrest performance out of mass produced surplus weapons. I've lost count of how many of these guys I've heard claim groups of .2-.4 using shit ammo out of a home built ar with a shaw barreled upper. So needless to say I don't have to much faith in shaw. | |||
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Quote: I feel the same, Allen. I just didn't have to be steered that way by a sour experience from another. The ER Shaw subject gets kicked around about every 6 months here, and on other forums. The issue is typically initiated by some innocent who asks questions about the reasonable price of their product and service. For some people it isn't good enough to explain what Shaw does and why their prices are reasonable. They must develop a reason why the product is crap and definitely not worth the low price. Shaw makes and sells factory and component barrels for the industry and general public. These are not match grade barrels. These are barrels perfectly suited for hunting. They are capable of very good, if not excellent accuracy. They aren't 2-3" "sprayers". They will be less fine-finished inside and out than a premium barrel. Some may find their available selection of countours, twists, and chamberings limiting. ER Shaw is an "assembly-line" gunsmithing firm. They do a few things well without options. They install their barrels, weld on their bolt handles, D&T for specific bases, install specific triggers and specific safeties. They do this work well, at a very reasonable price. They are not a top-of-the-line, custom, "you dream it up.....we build it" facility........but there certainly is a place in the industry for what they deliver. It isn't junk, and in my opinion a definite price-performer. GV | |||
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RMK You either stuttered pretty bad or you were shaking so bad your finger hit the same button four times. Either way, I still don't agree with all of your points however. What precisely makes an aftermarket barrel a factory barrel and what does not? I venture the biggest thing in your mind is PRICE !! It is a known fact that many people think the more they pay for something the better it must be. That my friend, ain't always so!!! Most all my rifles are built on military actions and It is pretty tough to find a factory takeoff barrel in the calibers I want. If you have a couple in 400 Whelen to fit a Springfield 1903 action and a 9mm Mauser to fit an Oberndorf 98 Mauser I am all ears. Knowing you probably don't I guess I will have to go with aftermarket barrel just as I have been for many years. I have used ten or more different barrel manufactures in over four decades of shooting and I will say the very best one was a Hart stainless. The worst one I have had was a Shilen "Select Match" chrome molly one. I will say the Shilen was no doubt an exception, even Kenny Jarrett saws a rifle in half occasionally because it won't shoot, but never the less it was the worst barrel for accuracy I have ever owned. At that it still was better than your 2-3 moa mentioned, but I won't own a rifle that won't shoot better than that and that is even when taking game is my PRIMARY reason for owning such a rifle. I also might add it was put on by the same smith who installed a Shaw barrel on my pet 275 Rigby that is a sub moa rifle. Two or three other Shaw barrels also shot well when installed by someone who cared about their work. I also might add despite my bad luck with one Shilen barrel five more currently reside in my gun safe so I do give barrel companies a second chance. Again, please give me more specifics on what determines this: Shaw barrels are nothing more then factory grade barrels I myself worry more how a barrel is installed than who made the barrel. From everything I have ever seen a lower cost barrel installed by a smith who knows what he is doing and also cares about his work will always shoot better than a higher priced barrel installed by a lesser fussy gunsmith. Your experience may be different but somehow I doubt it very much. | |||
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Blue, it isn't the customer's specs that these gunmakers are trying to appease -- it is their own standards that they are trying to meet! Who knows? Maybe the customer can't shoot for $hit..... At least they know that THEY CAN, so what better measure to go by that their own? With these guys, no rifle goes out unless it shoots and performs. What other way could it be or SHOULD it be? But to name names, Dave Miller & Curt Crum, D'Arcy Echols, Gene Simillion, and Kenny Jarrett are amoung the gunmakers who will yank barrels and eat the cost of replacing them if accuracy isn't up to their expectations. On the flip side, I can tell you about a guy I hired (a well-known stockmaker) to build a .270 back in 1983, then I was just a kid who worked like a dog and and could barely afford to pay for the work. This cowboy calls, says the stock and everything is done, etc. I ask, "How does it shoot?" His really snotty, arrogant answer: "How should I know???? THAT'S YOUR JOB!!@!!!!!! And yet this bastard was putting together rifles and making stocks that cost several times the price of a good factory rifle! And I had no right to ask that question? And he had the audacity and lazy work ethic to not to put in the time and effort to know the answer? Well sure enough, that rifle didn't shoot worth a $hit, and if I could give that same a$$hole what he STILL has coming to him for taking my investment at that tender age so lightly, they'd be picking up what's left of him with a rake, and that's no bull$hit. But unfortunately, justice will have to wait, because I don't need or want a lawsuit and/or assault charges to deal with. This same sonofabitch screwed one of my friends, too, which is another whole story. If you think this episode from some twenty years ago somehow jaded me about riflemakers, barrels, proceedures, etc., and still sours me today, you're quite right! This is why I give certain gunmakers my business, plus a lot of good press. They've EARNED IT "the old fashion", honest way. They're good people............ AD | ||
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Grandview, good points. If someone has had good luck with any particular make of barrel and has been getting the kind of accuracy they're looking for out of them, I'm surely not going to throw rocks at that. A good barrel is a good barrel! I've had lots of accurate factory-original Remington 700s, Winchester Model 70s, etc., that must have been sent out with extremely good barrels (by accident, perhaps!), because many of those rifles just-plain drove tacks with about any load. Lots of "good barrels" get ruined from bad gunsmithing....... AD | ||
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Price has nothing to do with it idared. Shaw is a factory grade barrel maker,wether you can handle that or not is irrelevant. If shaw was on par with barrel makers like shilen and hart,custom riflesmiths would be buying up shaw by the truck load and making an even greater profit off of the cheaper barrel. They aren't,because shaw isn't a quality barrel and gives the same hit or miss accuracy as a factory barrel. In fact alot of factory barrels are shaw. | |||
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Quote: What is your personal experience with Shaw barrels? What level of unacceptable accuracy did you experience? Legitimate criticism is useful. Critcising Shaw because they aren't a Shilen or Hart isn't. They aren't advertised as such, and none of us who use them are championing them as such. Those of us who do use them have posted what our experience was.....and what prospective buyers can expect. Including our past experience with lengthy delivery times. What was your experince with Shaw barrels? GV | |||
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stepchild 2 This happened somewhere between ten and fifteen years ago. I maybe am using the wrong term when I said "Select match", but I could swear that was what I was told it was. Anyway, it was supposed to be the very best chrome molly barrel that could be had from Shilen at that time. It was mounted on a Remington 721 action and was chambered in 30-06 Ackley. It would not get under 1.5 moa with any bullet or load I tried, and I tried a bunch of them. All told I believe it had close to twenty-five hundred rounds through it. I finally tired of trying anymore and replaced the barrel with the Hart stainless barrel of very similar contour I spoke of earlier. This barrel was simply installed in place of the Shilen with no other modifications to the action and only minor changes to the bedding to accomodate the slighty different barrel contour. The accuracy was phenominal from the start,with many different loads and bullets coming in under one moa and the very best group under one-quarter moa. This by the way was from the barreled action installed in a Remington "Classic" factory stock. That rifle was certainly an over achiever!!  The smith did eat his labor on installing the Hart barrel and whether he ever got anything from Doug or Ed Shilen I don't know. I didn't mean for this to be a bad mouth of Shilen in general, just merely stated that the worst barrel I ever had happened to be a Shilen. It was the second Shilen barrel that I had used, the first later proved satisfactory. This was a 280 Remington and I say later because it would not shoot the bullet I wanted it to, but it would shoot bullets of lighter weight for the person I traded it to and he still has good luck with it. I realize that a person should not try to build a rifle around a particular bullet, but I had been having good luck up till then doing it. Also, as I stated I did use more Shilen barrels after that and they proved to be satisfactory. As a side note a later 280 rifle using a Shilen barrel of the same specs shot the exact bullet I wanted to use in the first one very well indeed. All this proves to me that barrels can be somewhat of a crap shoot regardless of who makes them. I actually have had less problems with Shaw or Douglas barrels shooting well than Shilen, but then I have actually used more Shilens. As I stated above and Allen also eluded to,the manner in how a barrel is installed makes a tremendous difference. I agree that there are gunsmiths who have ruined good barrels. I further agree that many gunsmiths can take an average barrel and make it a very good shooter. In the beginning I was not a person who had to have every rifle shoot sub moa groups but a couple of smiths proved to me that it was a reasonable thing to strive for. So, after that I admit I became more picky than I really needed to be. It is a real confidence booster when you have a rifle that will shoot that way every time you take it to the range, and if it doesn't you know you are having a bad day. I am fortunate enough to say I have been blessed with more of those than I probably deserve. | |||
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Speaking from personal experience, I've had an ER Shaw in 7X64 fitted to my M70 since 1986 and it is still shooting sub MOA. I put 100-150 rounds through it annually. Cheers Pete | |||
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RMK Before I can handle anything you say you will have to tell me what makes such a drastic difference in barrel quality? And, before you assume to much I will tell you I have watched a few barrel makers actually make barrels, including both cut and button processes. Is it not a fact most chrome molly barrels are made of 4140 steel and most are button rifled? What else makes one a factory grade barrel and another a top notch custom barrel besides price? As for smiths buying up Shaw barrels one of the biggest reasons they don't is that most won't install a barrel and do the other things Shaw does as cheaply as Shaw will. In case you didn't notice many folks are driven by price. I don't blame any gunsmith for not doing things as cheaply as Shaw does, and as was stated earlier, if you actually read it, Shaw will only do things their way. I don't really like the bolt handles they use, and I am not wild about the way they forge some bolts either. But many people are satisfied and that has more to do with the delays people have with getting things done with Shaw. They are busy!!!!! So if they are busy, they are selling and installing a lot of barrels!!!!! Whether you or I like it or not, that is a simple fact. I can handle that, whether you can or not is also irrelevant. I am not saying that if I was making a target or bench rest rifle it would have a Shaw barrel on it, and even if it did it is very doubtful it would be assembled by them. However, they don't say they build such rifles either. They produce platforms for hunting rifles and by your very own words of how well a hunting rifle needs to shoot, I doubt many if any won't meet these standards. What more is necessary if a person wants to simply have a hunting rifle that reflects something more advanced than a standard factory rifle? I fail to see the reason for feeling they should be bad-mouthed basically because they sell and install barrels cheaper than most anyone else. BTW, they are not the only barrel company who has ever made barrels for factory rifles. Are you going to lump all the other barrel makers in this same category who have made barrels for factory rifles? It might surprise you who some might be. | |||
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Quote: Nope. If your level of dissatisfaction was such, I wouldn't expect you to act differently. The $90 price leads me to believe that was about a decade old purchase. Is that about right? Shaw has expanded and improved their equipment in that interim. GV | |||
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GV I've only used 1 Shaw barrel, and while the accuracy was acceptable (1 MOA with RG ball), the fact that it turned orange with copper after 1 shot (and yes it was "broken in", and yes it still fouls like a bitch), and I mean "dip a patch in paint and run it through the barrel" orange coated. Customer service at Shaw's response was "what do you expect for that $90?". I've also had 2 Shilens, accuracy was great with both (1/2MOA), and fouling has never been a issue. Whenever I've had questions (including bullet recogmendations) or concerns, the man that has taken the time to answer me directly is Doug Shilen. You expect me to consider using another Shaw? Or go with another Shilen? | |||
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Actually the price was ball park for the barrel alone, (had a top local smith do the install) and only about 3 years ago. | |||
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blue, I wanted to order a spiral fluted barrel for a custom project and after speaking with Shaw, and the treatment I got I made it very clear that he would never have my business. | |||
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Shaw's customer service rates about as high as a foul smelling fart. I would burn my money before spending a dime with Shaw   | |||
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If that is true, Grandview, I would agree. But the concept of helical fluting from a stiffness point is pretty bad. It would be a lot stiffer without the helical fluting. I will concede the increase in surface area arguement. Quote: Actually, in this case, the fluted barrel is actually stiffer. | |||
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Now that does remind me of something that is a bad idea: helical fluting. Fluting is meant to reduce weight without reducing stiffness too much. Helical fluting reduces stiffness by quite a bit. If your gun shoots well, great, but I would never go for this idea. | |||
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Quote: I've seen some threads on this issue before. The diameter of the barrel with fluting is larger than standard. While it may be true that a helical fluted barrel is less rigid than an unfluted barrel of the same diameter......the fluted barrel is just as rigid as a barrel of the same diameter as the deepest point of the flutes. A fluted barrel has more cooling area than a regular barrel. A helical fluted barrel has more cooling area than a regular fluted barrel.......as it has more "fluted" area. Zero: I read your thread about this rifle on 24-hour. Interesting round, and damn fine documentation of your project. GV | |||
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Quote: No, they aren't! | |||
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Hiredgun I can't comment about ER Shaw Barrels, more then the one I own. I am happy with it I am getting between .75 and 1.25 MOA depending on the load. I have not done alot of load developement yet, but I am sure that I can tighten up the group once I get a load the gun likes and the barrel gets a little more break in. I got the Carbon Steel, not the SS, with thier Helical Fluting, I lapped the lugs, but I had them Re-face / True the action, True the Bolt Face, Chamber the Barrel for 300 ICL Tornado (wildcat) with my brand new ream. They did the work in a very timely manner and 1/2 the price of any of the other barrel makers. Again this is one mans opinion, and as they say "your milage may vary" Zero   | |||
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Well, time for me to chime in. With 100-150 rounds through that Shaw barrel in a year, you must be retired with nothing else to do but clean the copper fouling out of that tube after every range session of 5 rounds before accuracy falls off and you can't push a patch through it. Jim | |||
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GV Thank you for the POSITIVE comments Zero | |||
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I first became aware of Shaw about 1985. I had just ran out of my stockpile of $95 Sako and FN actions. Was looking through Shotgun news and noticed an ad for Santa Barbara commercial Mauser actions (Spanish manufacter). Ordered 3 actions then called Shaw for barrels. Bought ten of his barrel blanks for 2-3 hundred dollars. An unmitigated disaster. Actions flimsy and poorly made. Barrels rough and out of round. Fortunately the distributer/importer let me return the actions. No go with Shaw. Over the years put the barrels to good use making dies etc. | |||
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LOL!!!! I WISH!!! Actually, that Shaw barrel was stamped as a "Shaw Premium". I think it was a little BS on the part of the gunsmith. The barrel is very accurate, it doesn't foul badly at all. It must have accounted for over 100 buck, (springbok mostly) and that can be hot and heavy shooting. It now sports a Rimrock stock and a 6.5-20 loopy and I use it for competition mostly. Very accurate rifle but it only shoots well with one load - 140gr Sierra FB Gamekings. Forget about 150gr and up. Cheers pete | |||
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I don't think it is snobery - snobery would be saying it must ne a Krieger or it wont shoot and it must be gunsmithed by Dave Miller or it isnt a gun worth owning. Just some aren't willing to take a chance with Shaw. Old line - where there is smoke there (usually) is fire. FOR ME too much smoke round Shaw. I would think that if you can afford to shoot out a factory barrel it should take too long to save for a Lilja, Hart, ect. Now if the reason is a barrel blow up or such - go Shaw by all means if you want - just know you can not complain if it shoots like a $200 barrel. I get to complain if a Krieger shoots like a $200 barrel tho I firmly believe that if Shaw could charge the 4-500 they would. I don't think Shaw is interrested in giving up 2-300 on each barrel job. While Shaw is busy so is Krieger, Hart, ect. There is a market out there that still is looking for the kind of consistancy the big guys offer. Obviously Shaw can not consistantly build a barrel of that quality other wise the would and the price would reflect this. Like wise, if I could consistantly get Hart, Krieger ect quality from Shaw and at that price - most anyone and everyone would be knocking on their door and the others would have a wait time in days not months. I commend Shaw for knowing just where there niche is and sticking to it. I would have a problem if they started to charge 500 and there was no increase in quality. | |||
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Teal, I too get a kick out of these sub MOA groups that people always talk about. Reminds me of something I heard once: "What do sub MOA groups have in common with rattlesnakes, fish, deer racks, and the male penis?...None of them are normally found anywhere in the vicinity of an accurate measuring device!" Rick | |||
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All I know is that there are a lot of Shaw and Adams & Bennett barrels out there that will really shoot--some even in the .200 range. I have had several of these and they will shoot as well as my Shilen, Douglas and PacNor tubes. I agree with what Idared said about quality installation being the most important factor. One thing I have noticed is that they tend to foul more than the higher priced brands. There is probably a lot of "rifle snobbery" in play with a discussion such as this... Not everyone can afford the highest priced equipment. | |||
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Quote: I have a A&B 22-250 that will shoot in the .200's with several loads when I do my part--when it doesn't, it is me, not the gun. The .220 Swift is an A&B that shoots in the .375 range. My .257 Ackley was an A&B that was consistently around .500. The Shaw 6.5-284 shoots anywhere from a .116 the other day to .400 on a regular basis. The A&B .284 is consistently in the .375 range--down to 1/4" with 160g Failsafes. The .280 Ackley is a A&B that is a .500 shooter with several loads. The Shaw 338-06 normally shoots between .500 and .750. All of this assumes I do my part which doesn't always happen. I judge what the gun is capable of, not how well I can shoot. All of the above presupposes we are talking about HUNTING rifles, not BR pipes. If I were shooting BR, I would definitely go with the higher priced rigs. By the way, John Barsness(hunting editor for Rifle and Handloader)reported that A&B barrels are Shaw seconds. My gunsmith has installed many A&B barrels and he says that the accuracy reported is phenomenal with many of the varied chamberings shooting consistently in the .200's and .300's. As I stated before, they are bad foulers that require more freqent cleaning a lot of the time. Until I notice a significant downturn, I will continue to use them. I will also use Douglas, Shilen, Pac-Nor, Montana Rifleman and others. | |||
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